The Lawfare Podcast

This week, a Scott-less Alan and Quinta sat down with Lawfare Tarbell Fellow Kevin Frazier and law school-bound Associate Editor Hyemin Han to talk over the week’s big national security news, including:

• “I will not make age an issue of this campaign. I am not going to exploit, for political purposes, my opponent's youth and inexperience.” Unlike Ronald Reagan, Joe Biden’s underwhelming performance at the first (and perhaps only) presidential debate has put his party in a panic about his chances to win the presidential election. Was Biden’s performance as bad as the pundits and betting markets seem to think and, if so, what should he do about it, both with respect to his staying in the race and even his ability to finish out his presidential term?
• “When you’re the president, they let you do it.” After promising an opinion “for the ages,” the Supreme Court, in a 6-3, party-line decision, held that presidents enjoy at least some degree of absolute immunity from criminal prosecution for official acts. Did the opinion, as the dissenting Justices argued, make the president above the law? And what does the opinion mean for the ongoing criminal prosecutions seeking to hold Trump accountable for crimes he allegedly committed while in office?
• "Tell it to my face…ial challenge." The Supreme Court continues its pattern of not squarely addressing difficult legal questions about the Internet. In Moody v. NetChoice, the Court sent back two challenges to state social-media moderation laws to the lower courts, instructing them to examine the laws on an as-applied, rather than facial, basis. What guidance did the Court give to the lower courts on remand, and what questions about the scope of the platforms’ First Amendment protections remain unanswered?

For object lessons, Alan gave himself a post-tenure present in the form of a fancy grill, Kevin recommended a Parisian shark week movie, Quinta suggested an animated science fiction adventure, and Hyemin enjoyed a book about the geopolitics of shame.

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From March 22, 2021: Benjamin Wittes sat down on Lawfare Live with Seamus Hughes, the deputy director of the Program on Extremism at George Washington University, and Alan Rozenshtein, a Lawfare senior editor and professor at the University of Minnesota Law School, to talk about the group of cases that have been filed in connection with the January 6 riot and insurrection. They talked about the database that Hughes is building and maintaining of cases, defendants and charges filed in connection with January 6; the pattern of charges; what the picture looks like so far; if it is likely to get closer to the president and his inner circle and if it will result in a series of seditious conspiracy charges.

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Anupam Chander, Scott Ginsburg Professor of Law and Technology at Georgetown Law; Kyle Langvhardt, Assistant Professor at the Nebraska College of Law; and Alan Rozenshtein, Senior Editor at Lawfare and Associate Professor at Minnesota Law, join Kevin Frazier, Assistant Professor at St. Thomas University College of Law and a Tarbell Fellow at Lawfare, to discuss the Supreme Court's decision in Moody v. NetChoice. The conversation dives into the weeds of a complex opinion that includes several concurrences and a lot of open questions. You can expect many podcasts and many more law review articles breaking down the ramifications of this surprising decision.

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As the Second World War started, an unsung cadre of US librarians and other information management professionals was making its way to Europe to acquire printed material that could help American analysts understand international threats. As the war went on, the mission of these experts expanded to also include an unprecedented effort to locate, preserve, and ultimately decide what to do with millions of printed items of Nazi propaganda--and with the books and documents that Germany had seized and hidden during the war. 

Professor Kathy Peiss, who teached in the Department of History at the University of Pennsylvania, joined host David Priess to discuss this, and more, including many stories from her compelling book Information Hunters: When Librarians, Soldiers, and Spies Banded Together in World War II Europe. They talked about the field of American Studies, her family connection that led her to study librarians and spies in World War II, the World War I-era connections between librarians and national security matters, the cooperation in the early 1940s between America's emerging intelligence efforts and the Library of Congress, extraordinary women who worked to gather materials in war-torn Europe, advances in microfilm technology and use as a result of their efforts, tensions between the US and UK in open source collection, the vital role Lisbon played in information hunting during the war, unique aspects of the material acquisition and preservation effort as the war ended, the heated debate over the destruction of Nazi books, challenges involved in the return of recovered materials, and more. Including zoot suits. Yes, really.

Works mentioned in this episode:

The book Information Hunters by Kathy Peiss

The movie The Monuments Men

The book The Monuments Men by Robert Edsel and Bret Witter

The book The Hunter by Tana French

The book Dr. No by Percival Everett

The book World War I and the Foundations of American Intelligence by Mark Stout

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Noam Osband of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

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It’s the decision we’ve all been waiting for: on the very last day of the Supreme Court’s 2023 term, the Court handed down its ruling in Trump v. United States, concerning the former president’s potential immunity from prosecution over his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. Rather than resolving the issue clearly, a 6-3 conservative majority found that presidents enjoy some immunity from criminal prosecution in some circumstances—a ruling that will likely create significant problems for the case against Trump.

Lawfare’s Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes discussed what to make of the opinions and what comes next with Executive Editor Natalie Orpett, Senior Editors Roger Parloff and Quinta Jurecic, and Courts Correspondent Anna Bower, along with special guest Lee Kovarsky of the University of Texas at Austin School of Law.

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On June 28, the Supreme Court released its opinion in Fischer v. U.S., narrowing the interpretation of an obstruction statute, 18 U.S.C. § 1512(c)(2), used by the Department of Justice to charge over 300 Jan. 6 defendants, including former President Trump.

Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes talked to Lawfare Senior Editors Quinta Jurecic and Roger Parloff about the decision, what happens to the Jan. 6 defendants charged with § 1512(c)(2), and how this ruling affects Special Counsel Jack Smith’s case against former President Trump.

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From April 1, 2021: This week on Arbiters of Truth, the Lawfare Podcast’s miniseries on our online information ecosystem, Evelyn Douek and Quinta Jurecic spoke with Issie Lapowsky, a senior reporter at the tech journalism publication Protocol. They discussed last week’s hearing before the House Energy and Commerce Committee with the CEOs of Facebook, Google and Twitter—the first time the companies had been called to testify on the Hill after the Capitol riot, which focused public attention on the content moderation policies of tech platforms when it comes to domestic extremism. The hearing produced some interesting takeaways, but also a lot of moments when the CEOs were awkwardly forced to answer complicated questions with a simple "yes" or "no" answer.

They also discussed Issie’s reporting on how tech companies have struggled to figure out how to address far-right extremism in the United States as opposed to Islamist extremism. And they talked about Section 230 reform and what it’s like reporting on the tech space.

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This episode of “Trump's Trials and Tribulations,” was recorded on June 27 in front of a live audience on YouTube and Zoom.

Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes spoke to Lawfare Legal Correspondent and Legal Fellow Anna Bower and Lawfare Senior Editor about the Monday and Tuesday hearings in the classified documents case, the Georgia Court of Appeals pausing all trial proceedings in Fulton County, and more. And of course, they took audience questions from Lawfare Material Supporters on Zoom.

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On June 26, the Supreme Court handed down its decision in Murthy v. Missouri—the “jawboning” case, concerning a First Amendment challenge to the government practice of pressuring social media companies to moderate content on their platforms. But instead of providing a clear answer one way or the other, the Court tossed out the case on standing. What now? Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes discussed the case with Kate Klonick of St. Johns University School of Law and Matt Perault, Director of the Center on Technology Policy at the University of North Carolina.

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This week, Alan, Quinta, and Scott were joined once again by Lawfare Tarbell Fellow Kevin Frazier to talk over the week’s big national security news, including:

• Wiki-plea-ks.” After more than a decade in effective confinement—first at the Ecuadorian embassy in London, then in a British prison—Wikileaks founder Julian Assange is set to plead guilty in a U.S. federal court in Saipan to a single violation of the Espionage Act for his role in securing and publishing troves of classified U.S. diplomatic cables in 2010, at which point he will walk free. What can we learn from Assange’s saga?
• “Houthi Can’t Fail.” After months of sustained hostilities—and a U.S.-led multilateral military response—the Houthi campaign against shipping through the Red Sea has once again ratcheted up a notch, disabling a number of ships in sometimes fatal attacks and teaming up with similarly Iran-affiliated Iraqi militia groups. As global supply lines strain, is it clear that the international community’s strategy failed? What more (or different) could it do?
• “iAI.” Apple is set to enter the artificial intelligence game with its new Apple Intelligence, which it will be rolling out on Apple devices in the Fall. But not in Europe, in part due to its regulatory posture. What does this tell us about the pros and cons of AI regulation, and how the industry is likely to react?

For object lessons, Alan shared a piece asking, “What happened to the libertarian party?” Quinta confirmed her millennial status by recommending the new album from The Decemberists, “As It Ever Was, So It Will Be Again.” Scott threw his endorsement to the very BBC film, “The Lost King.” And Kevin urged everyone to check out Kygo’s death defying piano performance. 

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For today's episode, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes speaks with Katsiaryna Shmatsina, a Belarusian political analyst and think tanker currently on trial for allegedly plotting to overthrow the government. Shmatsina discusses the charges against her, the trial process, and the broader political situation in Belarus. She delves into the history of the Lukashenko regime, its ties with Russia, and the repression of opposition voices. The conversation also covers the 2020 election and the subsequent crackdown on protests. Shmatsina shares her personal experiences with political repression in Belarus, her decision to flee the country, and her life under constant surveillance and fear of being targeted by the authorities. She explains her journey to seek asylum in the United States and her ongoing work in the think tank community.

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On June 10, the jury reached a verdict in the federal trial against Chiquita Banana. It found that the company had financed a paramilitary group in Colombia in the late 1990s and early 2000s, resulting in the deaths of eight men, and it awarded the victims' families $38 million in damages. It's the culmination of a 17-year-long multi-district litigation that had faced significant procedural, evidentiary, and legal challenges. And it may represent a new frontier in the fight to hold corporations legally accountable  for human rights violations.

Executive Editor Natalie Orpett discussed the case and its implications with Michael Posner, Director of the Center for Business and Human Rights at New York University’s Stern School of Business and a former Assistant Secretary of State for the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor.

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Libertarianism doesn’t fit easily on the traditional left-right spectrum of American politics. The philosophy upholds personal liberty as a core value. What does it have to say about matters of foreign policy and national security, which encompass ideas about self-defense but also protection of the state? 

Katherine Mangu-Ward sat down with Shane Harris to discuss the libertarian view on war and diplomacy, how it approaches the question of nation-state conflicts, and the differences between libertarianism and the Libertarian Party. Mangu-Ward is the editor-in-chief of Reason magazine, the leading publication on libertarian thought and ideas. She started her journalism career in 2000 as an intern at Reason and later worked at The Weekly Standard and The New York Times. Her writing has also appeared in The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, and many other publications.  

Political philosophers, publications, and novel state concepts discussed in this episode include: 

Ayn Rand https://aynrand.org/ 

Fusionism https://reason.com/2021/02/10/is-there-a-future-for-fusionism/ 

Friedrich Hayek https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/friedrich-hayek/ 

The Yale Free Press 

Students for a Democratic Society https://www.pbs.org/opb/thesixties/topics/politics/newsmakers_1.html 

Prospera https://www.prospera.co/ 

Read and listen to more of Mangu-Ward’s work: 

https://reason.com/people/katherine-mangu-ward/ 

https://reason.com/podcasts/the-reason-roundtable/ 

https://twitter.com/kmanguward?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor 

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Noam Osband of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

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Larry Lessig, Roy L. Furman Professor of Law and Leadership at the Harvard Law School, joins Kevin Frazier, a Tarbell Fellow at Lawfare, to discuss the open letter published by 13 current or former AI lab employees calling for a Right to Warn of AI dangers. This conversation dives into Lessig's representation of some of those employees as they push for a Right to Warn of AI dangers, the potential scope of that right, and the need for such a right in the first place. All signs suggest this won't be the last deep dive into the dangers posed by AI and the responsibility of AI labs and employees to prevent those dangers.

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Just months after many of the mandates in the European Union's Digital Markets Act (DMA) have gone into effect, interoperability and data portability are fresh on the policy world’s mind. But what does the history of interoperability suggest about its ability to help the Internet regain its former openness?

Alan Rozenshtein, Associate Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota and Senior Editor at Lawfare, spoke with Alexander Rigby, a law clerk on Delaware Court of Chancery, and Chinmayi Sharma, Associate Professor at Fordham Law School. They've just published a new white paper in Lawfare's ongoing Digital Social Contract paper series arguing that open banking is a useful case study in the promise and pitfalls of interoperability.

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This episode of “Trump's Trials and Tribulations,” was recorded on June 21 in front of a live audience on YouTube and Zoom.

Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes spoke to Lawfare Legal Correspondent and Legal Fellow Anna Bower, University of Texas law professor Lee Kovarsky, and Georgetown Law professor Martin Lederman about the Friday hearing on the legality of Special Counsel Jack Smith’s appointment in the classified documents case, the appellate issues at hand in Trump’s NYC case, the latest filings in Fulton County, and more. And of course, they took audience questions from Lawfare Material Supporters on Zoom.

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From August 17, 2020: In a surprise announcement last week, the United Arab Emirates and Israel are normalizing relations, and Israel is putting on hold its plans for annexation of West Bank territory. To discuss the announcement and its diverse implications for various actors, Benjamin Wittes spoke with Lawfare senior editor Scott Anderson; Suzanne Maloney, an Iran specialist who is acting head of the Foreign Policy Program at Brookings; Natan Sachs, the director of the Brookings Center for Middle East Policy; and Hady Amr, a non-resident senior fellow at Brookings who served as the United States deputy special envoy for Israeli-Palestinian negotiations. They talked about what the deal covers; its implications for the domestic politics of Israel, Iran and the United States; how it might affect the larger regional dynamics and what it means for the Palestinians.

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For today's episode, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down to discuss the various Ukraine-related agreements that came out of the G7 and subsequent Ukraine peace summit last week, with Contributing Editor and Carnegie Endowment for International Peace Senior Fellow Eric Ciaramella, Ukrainian journalist Anastasiia Lapatina, and Lawfare Senior Editor and Brookings Institution Fellow Scott R. Anderson.

They discussed the joint communique that came out of the Ukraine peace summit (and those who didn't join it), the new U.S.-Ukraine security agreement, the G7's new funding mechanism for Ukraine assistance, and what it all means for the state of the fight against Russia.

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This week, Quinta and Scott were joined by Lawfare Contributing Editor and Senior Fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace Eric Ciaramella to talk over the week’s big national security news, including:

• “Prime Deliverables, in Two Days or Less.” The Biden administration and its European allies coughed up a number of big wins for Ukraine at a meeting of the G7 and subsequent Ukraine peace summit this past week, ranging from a new U.S.-Ukraine security agreement to a commitment to provide $50 billion in assistance derived from frozen Russian assets. But are these measures game-changers—especially with political changes in both Europe and the United States on the horizon?
• “Trying to F Us.” Policy advisors to former President Trump reportedly have some big plans for government employees if he is elected to a second stint in the White House—including the return of Schedule F, an reorganization of the civil service that would have gutted job protections and made it easier to replace civil servants with partisan loyalists. How big a problem are these plans? And how feasible are they really?
• “Revenge of the Nerds.” A little known intelligence agency within the State Department—the Bureau of Intelligence and Research, or INR—has gotten some great press of late, celebrating several notable analytic victories it’s secured, often in dissent from the rest of the intelligence community. Is there some secret to INR’s success? Or is it overblown?

For object lessons, Quinta shared more important NJ political corruption news. Scott awarded his song of the summer to “Right Back to It,” the single off Waxahatchee’s phenomenal “Tiger’s Blood.” And Eric recommended “Sovietistan,” a travelogue about Central Asia by Norwegian anthropologist Erika Fatland.

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The Cyber Safety Review Board’s (CSRB) report on the Summer 2023 Microsoft Exchange online intrusion sheds light on how a series of flaws in Microsoft’s cloud infrastructure and security processes allowed a hacking group associated with the People’s Republic of China (PRC) to strike the “equivalent of gold” in accessing the official email accounts of many of the most senior U.S. government officials managing the U.S. government’s relationship with the PRC. Lawfare Senior Editor Stephanie Pell sat down Maia Hamin, Associate Director with the Atlantic Council’s Cyber Statecraft Initiative; Trey Herr, Assistant Professor of cybersecurity and policy at American University’s School of International Service and Director of the Cyber Statecraft Initiative at the Atlantic Council; and Marc Rogers, Co-Founder and Chief Technology Officer for the AI observability startup nbhd.ai, to discuss their recent Lawfare piece about the CSRB’s report and the lagging state of cloud security policy. They talked about ways to improve cloud service provider transparency, other investigative and regulatory tools that could facilitate better cloud security, and their thoughts on Microsoft’s response to the CSRB’s report. 

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From June 29, 2020: Jack Goldsmith sat down with Eric Posner, the Kirkland & Ellis Distinguished Service Professor of Law at the University of Chicago, and the author of the new book, "The Demagogue's Playbook: The Battle for American Democracy from the Founders to Trump." They discussed why demagogues are a characteristic threat in democracies, how the founders of the U.S. Constitution tried to ensure elite control and prevent a demagogue from becoming president, how these safeguards weakened over time and how Donald Trump's demagoguery helped him win election as president. They also explored how Posner's perception of Trump as a threat to American democracy fits with his writings in support of a powerful president.

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Renée DiResta is the author of Invisible Rulers: The People Who Turn Lies into Reality. Until the other day, she was one of the brains behind the Stanford Internet Observatory, where she did pioneering work studying Internet information streams how they generate. The day before this podcast was recorded, news broke that Stanford was shutting down—or revamping—the SIO, and DiResta is no longer associated with it. In this conversation with Lawfare Editor in Chief Benjamin Wittes, DiResta talks about how she came to study online information flows, how they work, and how she and her work came to be the subject of one herself.

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Noam Osband of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

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On June 2, Mexico held one of the largest elections in its history, and the electorate voted in the country's first woman, and Jewish, president, Claudia Sheinbaum. Sheinbaum was endorsed by outgoing President Andrés Manuel López Obrador (AMLO), who critics charge as pushing a series of anti-democratic policies including a substantial judicial overhaul. 

To discuss this historic election and what President-elect Claudia Sheinbaum may do in office, Lawfare Associate Editor for Communications Anna Hickey sat down with former United States Ambassador Roberta Jacobson. They discussed the issues voters were concerned about, political violence by cartels plaguing the country, and whether Sheinbaum will follow AMLO's trajectory as a populist or chart her own path. 

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Lawfare Senior Editors Molly Reynolds and Quinta Jurecic checked in on the status of Senator Bob Menendez’s ongoing criminal trial in the Southern District of New York. Together with Dan Richman of Columbia Law School and Eric Columbus, who previously served as special litigation counsel at the U.S. House of Representatives’ Office of General Counsel, they discussed the challenges faced by prosecutors in bringing corruption charges against a sitting member of Congress. 

The Justice Department alleges that Menendez took bribes in exchange for unregistered lobbying for the governments of Egypt and Qatar—among other incidents of unsavory behavior. But after the Supreme Court’s decision in McDonnell v. United States, and given the protections available to members of Congress under the Speech or Debate Clause, will prosecutors be able to make the charges stick?

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From July 17, 2020: Darrell West and John Allen are the authors of the book, "Turning Point: Policymaking in the Era of Artificial Intelligence," a broad look at the impact that artificial intelligence systems are likely to have on everything from the military, to health care, to vehicles and transportation, and to international great power competition. They spoke with Benjamin Wittes about the book and the question of how we should govern AI systems. What makes for ethical uses of AI? What makes it scary? What are the anxieties that people have about artificial intelligence, and to what extent are the fears legitimate?

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This episode of “Trump's Trials and Tribulations,” was recorded on June 13 in front of a live audience on YouTube and Zoom.

Lawfare Associate Editor for Communications Anna Hickey talked to Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes and Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic about Judge Cannon's order denying in part former President Trump's motion to dismiss the classified document case, what Judge McAfee is up to in Fulton County, and of course, they took audience questions from Lawfare Material Supporters on Zoom.

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On today’s episode, Matt Gluck, Research Fellow at Lawfare, spoke with Sean Mirski and Aaron Sobel of Arnold & Porter. Mirski practices foreign-relations, international, and appellate law, and Sobel practices international and appellate law. They discussed Mirski and Sobel’s recent Lawfare piece, co-authored with John Bellinger and Catherine McCarthy, on the Eighth Circuit’s decision reviving part of Missouri’s coronavirus-related lawsuit against several defendants connected to the Chinese government.

They spoke about the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act, Missouri’s claims and why one of them survived the Eighth Circuit’s jurisdictional review, how this decision might affect other coronavirus lawsuits, and the potential implications of the decision for U.S. foreign policy, among other topics.

Check out Mirski’s recent book, “We May Dominate the World: Ambition, Anxiety, and the Rise of the American Colossus,” which examines the roots of the United States’ ascension to hegemony and was rated by Kirkus as one of the 100 best non-fiction books of 2023.

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This week, Alan, Quinta, and Scott were joined by Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes to talk through some of the week’s biggest national security news stories, including:

• “Save the Last Gantz.” Leading opposition figure Benny Gantz has left Israel’s war cabinet over Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s failure to establish post-conflict plans for Gaza, raising serious questions about the stability of Netanyahu’s far-right government. What does Gantz’s departure mean for the future of the conflict?
• “Congress Shall Make No Law…Abridging the Freedom of [BEEP], or of the [PRESS ENTER KEY].” California is on the verge of enacting one of the country’s first AI safety laws. But critics are arguing that the type of restrictions it imposes may run afoul of the First Amendment. How does AI fit with the freedom of speech—and does the First Amendment put it beyond regulatory reach?
• “A Stale Macron is One Tough Cookie.” Recent elections to the European Parliament saw a surge in right (and particularly far-right) parties across the continent, and most specifically in France and Germany. Fearing what this groundswell might mean for his centrist coalition, French President Emmanuel Macron has sought to cut it off at the pass by calling for snap national parliamentary elections. Is this a risky strategy or a sound one?

For object lessons, Ben asked listeners how they intended to celebrate #RussiaDay on June 12. Alan celebrated an inedible apple. Quinta followed up on last week’s discussion to share the American Immigration Council’s analysis of the new border executive order. And Scott sang the praises of Roka, a brand of glasses that finally stays on his dumb flat face.

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On today’s episode, Lawfare General Counsel and Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with Gabor Rona, Professor of Practice at Cardozo Law, and Natalie Orpett, Lawfare’s Executive Editor, to discuss their recent Lawfare piece examining whether a state pursuing an armed conflict in compliance with international humanitarian law could nonetheless violate the Genocide Convention. They discussed how these two areas of law intersect, their relevance to the ongoing proceedings over Israel’s conduct in Gaza before the International Court of Justice, and what the questions their analysis raises might mean for the future of accountability for genocide.

You can find their article, "Can Armed Attacks That Comply With IHL Nonetheless Constitute Genocide?," online at https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/can-armed-attacks-that-comply-with-ihl-nonetheless-constitute-genocide.

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Natan Sachs is the Director of the Center for Middle East Policy at the Brookings Institution. He joined Lawfare's Editor in Chief, Benjamin Wittes, to discuss the resignation of Israeli war cabinet member Benny Gantz, the fate of Benjamin Netanyahu's right-wing government, and Israeli perceptions of the Gaza war.

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Paul Sparrow, who served as Director of the Franklin D. Roosevelt Presidential Library and Museum from 2015 to 2022, has written the book Awakening the Spirit of America about the war of words between FDR and Charles Lindbergh in 1940-41.

He joined host David Priess to discuss his path to the FDR Library, the history of presidential libraries, how the Roosevelt-Lindbergh war of words reveals much about the American experience before and during the Second World War, why Lindbergh never ran for president, the America First movement, Roosevelt's chaotic approach to intelligence, FDR's popular legacy, and more.

Works mentioned in this episode:

The book Awakening the Spirit of America by Paul Sparrow

The book The Plot Against America by Philip Roth

The book K is for Killing by Daniel Easterman

The book Those Angry Days by Lynne Olson

The podcast Ultra

The book Prequel by Rachel Maddow

The book The Wave of the Future by Anne Lindbergh

The book An Unfinished Love Story by Doris Kearns Goodwin

The book The Killing Shore by K. A. Nelson

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

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The first criminal trial of a former president of the United States began in April and reached a verdict on May 30. As Lawfare readers and listeners know, we covered the trial in great detail. Normally based in Washington, D.C., we opened a temporary “bureau” in New York City so that we could report on each and every day of the proceedings from inside the courtroom. We produced written and oral dispatches every day on top of our usual deep-dive analysis of the legal issues at stake. So we’ve talked a lot about the trial itself. This time, we’re talking about the experience of covering the trial. Executive Editor Natalie Orpett spoke with Legal Fellow Anna Bower, Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic, Managing Editor Tyler McBrien, and Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes about how it all worked, why Lawfare’s coverage was unique, and what it was like to actually be there.

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Charlotte Willner, Executive Director of the Trust and Safety Professional Association, and David Sullivan, Executive Director of the Digital Trust & Safety Partnership, join Lawfare's Tarbell Fellow Kevin Frazier and Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic to discuss content moderation in the age of AI. Following 97 self-described data labellers, content moderators, and AI workers publishing an open letter describing deplorable working conditions, Charlotte and David break down what's new and what's not about the ongoing trade-offs involved in content moderation. The group also dives into the evolution of content moderation and analyzes the effects of relatively recent regulations, such as the EU's Digital Services Act, on trust and safety work.

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From March 3, 2020: The population of Africa is projected to double by 2050, giving the continent one quarter of the world's people by then. Nigeria alone will have a larger population than the United States. To the extent they aren't so already, the world's problems and opportunities will be Africa's, too, and African problems and opportunities will also be the world's. David Priess spoke about developments in African politics and international engagement with two experts from the Africa Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies—its director Judd Devermont, and one of its senior associates, Emilia Columbo.

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This episode of “Trump's Trials and Tribulations,” was recorded on June 6 in front of a live audience on YouTube and Zoom.

Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes talked to Lawfare Senior Editor Roger Parloff, Lawfare Courts Correspondent and Legal Fellow Anna Bower, and New York Times reporter Alan Feuer about the Georgia Court of Appeal's order staying trial court proceedings in the Fulton County case, what Judge Cannon has been up to in the Southern District of Florida, including scheduling days of hearings, and more. And of course, they took audience questions from Lawfare Material Supporters on Zoom.

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From October 27, 2018: There is a caravan—you've probably heard something about it. Stephanie Leutert, director of the Mexico Security Initiative at the Robert S. Strauss Center for International Security and Law, has heard something about it. On Friday, Benjamin Wittes caught up with Leutert to talk about her time on the Mexico-Guatemala border traveling with migrants who are following a trail not unlike that of the caravan. They talked about why people are joining this caravan, what are alternatives to it, why certain migrants are shunning it, the factors pushing people out of countries like Honduras and Guatemala, and what it's like to be a child on the long trek to the United States.

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In 2022, Georgetown University Law Center’s Institute for Constitutional Advocacy and Protection and Stafford Rosenbaum filed a lawsuit against ten Wisconsin fraudulent electors, Kenneth Chesebro, and James Troupis for their efforts to subvert the 2020 election. Earlier this year, ICAP reached two settlements with the defendants, which resulted in thousands of pages of text messages, emails, and other correspondence being turned over, providing new insight into how exactly the fake electors scheme was developed and implemented in Wisconsin and across the country. 

Lawfare Associate Editor for Communications Anna Hickey sat down with ICAP Executive Director Mary McCord to discuss the settlements reached with the Wisconsin fraudulent electors, what new information was revealed in the thousands of pages of documents turned over, and whether the recent criminal charges filed against Kenneth Chesebro, James Troupis, and Mike Roman revealed any new information.

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This week, Quinta and Scott were joined by Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien to discuss how he is coping with the end of the New York trial and to run through some of the week’s big national security news stories, including:

• “A Perfect Conviction.” Last week, after less than two days of deliberation, a jury in New York state criminal court found former President Trump guilty of all 34 criminal counts on which he was being tried. He’s now scheduled to be sentenced just days before the Republican National Convention this summer, where he is expected to be named the party’s 2024 presidential nominee. What does this conviction mean for Trump’s campaign? What are his prospects for appeal? And what happens if he still wins?
• “Biden Time.” Last week, President Biden laid out a three-step cease-fire plan for Gaza, sending the clearest signal yet that he is intent on ending the conflict there. Both sides have accepted the plan in principle but have yet to reach agreement on the particulars—and, meanwhile, Israel’s Rafah operation has continued. Is this finally a sign of the Gaza end game? Or that the end is nigh for Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu’s government, which is under increasing domestic and international pressure?
• “Order on the Border.” This week, the Biden administration unveiled a new executive order that will make it harder for migrants crossing the southern U.S. border to apply for and receive asylum during periods of high border traffic, facilitating their prompt removal. Is this move a reasonable policy measure, cynical election politics, or something else entirely?

For object lessons, Quinta recommended Zadie Smith’s new-ish novel, “The Fraud.” Scott shared a note from the archives about high cetacean fashion. And Tyler passed along an inspirational story about Osaka airport’s amazing luggage record.

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On today’s episode, Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sits down with Alex Iftimie, a Deputy General Counsel at OpenAI, to talk over their recent report revealing that OpenAI has shut down several state-backed information operations using OpenAI’s artificial technology services. They discussed the operations themselves, how OpenAI is investigating and responding to such activities, and what they tell us about how the nascent artificial intelligence industry is impacting state-backed information operations, among other types of problematic behavior.

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Ashley Deeks, Professor at the University of Virginia School of Law, and Dr. Mark Klamberg, Professor at Stockholm University, Visiting Professor at American University, and Fellow with the Atlantic Council, join Lawfare's Tarbell Fellow Kevin Frazier and Senior Editor Alan Rozenshtein to discuss the weaponization of AI. The group explores a number of related topics including ongoing domestic and international efforts to regulate military use of AI, the national security implications of weaponized AI, and whether AI companies bear any legal responsibility for military use of their AI systems. Professor Deeks and Dr. Klamberg bring their extensive AI knowledge to the fore in this illuminating podcast. Keep an eye out for their respective forthcoming publications on military use of AI.

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In the wake of World War II, the United States and the Soviet Union set off on the great space race, competing to see which super power could put the first human in space and eventually land them on the Moon. As historian John Strausbaugh writes, that race should have been over before it even started. 

Strausbaugh’s new book, The Wrong Stuff: How the Soviet Space Program Crashed and Burned, is a harrowing and frequently hilarious account of how political leaders and engineers slapped together a space program with little apparent concern for the lives of the cosmonauts they hurled into Earth’s orbit. Moscow blustered about the size of its rockets and the triumph of its space pioneers. But that patriotic rhetoric hid the true nature of a program that was harried and haphazard, and whose leaders weren’t quite sure how to return their pilots to Earth after launching them into space. 

The Soviet space program stands in stark contrast, Strausbaugh told Shane Harris, to the methodical and comparatively risk-averse NASA program, which eventually overtook its rival. 

Books, historical figures, and near-death space walks discussed in this episode include: 

The Wrong Stuff: How the Soviet Space Program Crashed and Burned https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/john-strausbaugh/the-wrong-stuff/9781541703346/?lens=publicaffairs 

The Right Stuff by Tom Wolfe https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780312427566/therightstuff  

Off the Planet: Surviving Five Perilous Months Aboard the Space Station Mir by Jerry Linenger https://www.amazon.com/Off-Planet-Surviving-Perilous-Station/dp/007136112X  

Sergei Korolev https://www.skyatnightmagazine.com/space-missions/sergei-korolev-life-history-timeline 

Yuri Gagarin https://www.pbs.org/redfiles/rao/gallery/gagarin/index.html 

Alexi Leonov https://time.com/5802128/alexei-leonov-spacewalk-obstacles/ 

More about John Strausbaugh:

https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/contributor/john-strausbaugh/?lens=twelve 

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

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This episode, Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with author, attorney, legal scholar, and Lawfare Contributing Editor Michel Paradis to discuss the 80th anniversary of D-Day and his new book, “The Light of Battle: Eisenhower, D-Day, and the Birth of the American Superpower.”

They discussed understudied aspects of Eisenhower’s unique personal and professional history, how they prepared him for leading what would become the Allied invasion of Europe, and how his actions set the stage for much of the 20th century that would follow.

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Rachel Rizzo, a nonresident senior fellow at the Atlantic Council’s Europe Center, joins Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien to talk about last month’s NATO Youth Summit. Building off of her chapter “NATO, Public Opinion, and the Next Generation: Remaining Relevant, Remaining Strong,” in the 2021 book, “NATO 2030: Towards a New Strategic Concept and Beyond,” Rizzo discusses what NATO thinks of Gen Z and Millennials, the many efforts the Alliance is making to pitch to them its relevance and purpose, and the ways in which NATO could better integrate youth voices into discussions about the Alliance’s future. She also explains how and why Gen Z and Millennial views on NATO, foreign policy, and America’s changing role in the world differ from older generations. And yes, they even discuss Taylor Swift and Olivia Rodrigo.

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From July 31, 2018: For years, Shane Harris of the Washington Post has been fascinated with the search for extraterrestrial life in the universe. But that search raises a profound question: Should we try to communicate with aliens? Is there a risk to alerting a potentially hostile species to our presence? On July 12, Shane moderated a conversation hosted by Future Tense with Lucianne Walkowicz, the chair of astrobiology at the Library of Congress, and NASA astrophysicist Elisa Quintana, to talk about the ethics of the search for ETs and the associated risks with trying to make contact.

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From August 19, 2020: Late last week, the UN Security Council voted down a resolution, offered by the United States, to indefinitely extend a conventional arms embargo on Iran set to expire in October. The lifting of the arms embargo was one of the sweeteners that was part of the Obama administration's Iran nuclear agreement. Now, the Trump administration has announced it will begin the process of triggering the snapback of UN sanctions on Iran using procedures outlined in UNSCR 2231—a move that could be the death knell for the Iran nuclear agreement. Margaret Taylor sat down with Lawfare senior editor Scott Anderson and Richard Gowan, the UN director for the Crisis Group, an independent research and advocacy organization that recently released a report on the U.S. attempt to reimpose sanctions, to talk through the legal and political issues, as well as what will unfold on this matter in the weeks and months to come.

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This episode of “Trump's Trials and Tribulations,” was recorded on May 30 in front of a live audience on YouTube and Zoom.

Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes talked to Lawfare Senior Editors Quinta Jurecic and Roger Parloff about the timing of the D.C. case, Judge Aileen Cannon's denial of Special Counsel Jack Smith's gag order request in Florida, updates in the Fulton County case, the performance of Trump's attorneys and jury deliberations in the New York case, and more. And of course, they took audience questions from Lawfare Material Supporters on Zoom.

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This episode of “Trump's Trials and Tribulations, N.Y. Dispatch” was recorded on May 30 in front of a live audience on YouTube and Zoom.

Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes talked to Lawfare Senior Editors Quinta Jurecic and Roger Parloff, Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien, and Courts Correspondent and Legal Fellow Anna Bower about Trump's conviction in his N.Y. criminal case. Trump was found guilty on 34 felony counts for falsification of business records in the first degree. They discussed the the mood in the courtroom when the jury delivered the verdict, what this means for the 2024 election, big takeaways from the trial, and more.

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This week, a Quinta-less Alan and Scott sat down with Lawfare all-stars Natalie Orpett, Eugenia Lostri, and Kevin Frazier to talk about the week’s big national security news, including: 

• “Waiting to Expel.” The New York Times reported this week that the anticipated transfer of almost a dozen detainees from Guantanamo Bay to Oman was halted in the wake of the Oct. 7 massacre. This as Oman is reportedly preparing to expel a number of former detainees already resident there with their families. What do these developments mean for the effort to resettle detainees and ultimately close Guantanamo?
• “The First Law of Robotics is Don’t Talk About the Law of Robotics.” AI safety is back on the front pages again, after the resignation of much of OpenAI’s “superalignment” team, which had been tasked with preventing the AIs being developed from becoming a threat to humanity. A bipartisan group of senators, meanwhile, has laid out a roadmap to guide legislative efforts. But is it on the right track? And just how much should we be sucking up to our future robot overlords?
• “20,000 Leaks Under the Sea.” Strategic competition is slowly leading U.S. officials to give more careful consideration to the network of undersea cables on which much of the global telecommunications system relies—and which China and Russia seem increasingly intent on being able to access or disrupt. But what will addressing this threat require? And is the antiquated legal regime governing undersea cables up to the task?

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Former FCC Chair Tom Wheeler joins Lawfare Tarbell Fellow Kevin Frazier and Lawfare Senior Editor Alan Rozenshtein to discuss the latest developments in AI governance. Building off his book, “Techlash: Who Makes the Rules in the Digital Gilded Age?” Wheeler makes the case for a more agile approach to regulating AI and other emerging technology. This approach would likely require the creation of a new agency. Wheeler points out that current agencies lack the culture, structure, and personnel required to move at the speed of new technologies. He also explores the pros and cons of the Bipartisan Senate AI Working Group’s roadmap for AI policy. While Wheeler praises the collaboration that went into the roadmap, he acknowledges that it may lack sufficient focus on the spillover effects of more AI development and deployment. 

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On May 14, the Georgian parliament passed a controversial foreign agent bill titled “Transparency of Foreign Influence,” which has led to mass protests across the country. Although President Salome Zourabichvili's vetoed the bill, Georgia Dream, the majority party, overturned the veto on May 28, ensuring the enactment of this legislation.

Lawfare Associate Editor for Communications Anna Hickey sat down with Senior Fellow at Carnegie Europe Thomas de Waal to discuss what exactly was in the bill, why it was so controversial, how the U.S. and European Union have reacted, and why Georgia Dream decided to pass it now.

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