The Lawfare Podcast

Benjamin Nathans is a professor of Russian and Soviet history at the University of Pennsylvania, with a particular specialty in the history of Russian and Soviet dissidents. He joined Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes to talk about the legacy of Alexei Navalny, his life and death, and how Navalny was similar to and different from other dissidents, both recent and historic. They talked about how his death was related to the sham elections in Russia and the protests that he earned in response to those elections, whether there is anybody who can carry the flag that he bore going forward, and the future of the Russian liberal movement.

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In February, Special Counsel Robert Hur released a report declining to prosecute President Biden for his handling of classified material. Earlier this month, Hur testified before the House Judiciary Committee answering questions from irritated members on both sides of the aisle who were critical of Hur’s work. Hur’s report and its fallout have reignited long-simmering questions about the usefulness of the special counsel as an institution. 

Lawfare Research Fellow Matt Gluck sat down with an all-star crew of Lawfare regulars—Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes, Lawfare Co-Founder and Harvard Law School Professor Jack Goldsmith, Lawfare Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic, and Lawfare Contributing Editor and former career federal prosecutor Chuck Rosenberg—to break it all down. They discussed the history of the special counsel institution and its predecessors, its current flaws, and how it should change. 

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One year ago, Elizabeth Tsurkov, a graduate student at Princeton University, was abducted by the terrorist organization Kata'ib Hezbollah in Baghdad, where she was doing fieldwork. Since that day, her sister, Emma Tsurkov, has been campaigning for and seeking her release. 

On Thursday, Emma Tsurkov held a rally outside the Iraqi embassy, demanding action to free her sister. Afterward, she sat down with Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes to discuss her sister's very upsetting case. Who is Kata'ib Hezbollah, and why are they holding hostage an Israeli graduate student? Who is Elizabeth Tsurkov, and how did she come to be in Baghdad in the first place? Which government is responsible for securing her release? And why does the United States keep providing military aid to a government that is in bed with Kata'ib Hezbollah, a designated Foreign Terrorist Organization? 

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This week on Rational Security, Alan and Quinta were joined by Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien and Lawfare Legal Fellow and Courts Correspondent Anna Bower to talk through the week's big national security news, including:

• “No v. Wade.” The long saga of the personal relationship between Fani Willis, the Fulton County District Attorney prosecuting Donald Trump for election interference, and Nathan Wade, the prosecutor Willis put in charge of the case, hit an inflection point when Judge Scott McAfee, who is overseeing the criminal case, ruled that, though there was no actual conflict of interest, “the appearance of impropriety remains,” and ordered Willis to either recuse herself from the case or to remove Wade from his role as prosecutor. Wade promptly resigned, clearing the way for the case to continue. Is this the right resolution to the controversy, and what does it say about the future of the Fulton County case, especially if Trump appeals and tries to force Willis’s disqualification?
• “Pleading the Fifth…Circuit.” In a sign that even the conservative Justices of the Supreme Court may be losing patience with the Fifth Circuit, Missouri received a chilly reception in oral argument on Monday when it tried to defend a circuit opinion preventing the government from virtually any communication with social media companies about removing misinformation and harmful content. How is the Supreme Court likely to rule and what should the rule be when it comes to concerns around government “jawboning.”
• “Psy-Oops.” Reuters has reported that, during the Trump administration, the CIA engaged in an influence operation on Chinese social media to spread negative information about Xi Jinping and other Chinese leaders. Was it effective, was it a good idea, and what should U.S. intelligence priorities be with regard to China?

For object lessons, Quinta shared a wild story about a pro-Trump lawyer arrested on a bench warrant while in court. Alan recommended a new Guy Ritchie show. And Tyler shared Quinta's brilliant visual aid to understanding Trump's litigation delay tactics.

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It's another episode of “Trump's Trials and Tribulations,” recorded on March 21 in front of a live audience on YouTube and Riverside. Lawfare Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic sat down with Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes and Lawfare Senior Editor Roger Parloff to talk about Trump's SCOTUS brief in his presidential immunity appeal and recent evidentiary rulings from Judge Merchan in the New York criminal case against Trump. They also discussed Judge Cannon's odd proposed jury instructions, the relevance—or irrelevance—of the Presidential Records Act in the Mar-a-Lago case, and how the government may proceed. And of course they took audience questions from Lawfare Material Supporters on Riverside.

To be able to submit questions to the panelists, become a Material Supporter at lawfaremedia.org/support.

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From May 16, 2022: In order to tell you this story, we need to start at the beginning, just before the U.S. invasion. After 9/11, the CIA set their sights on al-Qaeda’s base in Afghanistan. After a military invasion that fall, people up and down the chain of command learned that in order to fight this war the U.S. needed local partners to help.

Allies is a podcast about America’s eyes and ears over 20 years of war in Afghanistan. This show will take you from the frontlines of the war to the halls of Congress to find out: How did this happen?

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Today, we’re bringing you an episode of Arbiters of Truth, our series on the information ecosystem.

Last week the House of Representatives overwhelmingly passed a bill that would require ByteDance, the Chinese company that owns the popular social media app TikTok, to divest its ownership in the platform or face TikTok being banned in the United States. Although prospects for the bill in the Senate remain uncertain, President Biden has said he will sign the bill if it comes to his desk, and this is the most serious attempt yet to ban the controversial social media app.

Today's podcast is the latest in a series of conversations we've had about TikTok. Matt Perault, the Director of the Center on Technology Policy at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, led a conversation with Alan Rozenshtein, Associate Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota and Senior Editor at Lawfare, and Ramya Krishnan, a Senior Staff Attorney at the Knight First Amendment Institute at Columbia University. They talked about the First Amendment implications of a TikTok ban, whether it's a good idea as a policy matter, and how we should think about foreign ownership of platforms more generally.

Disclaimer: Matt's center receives funding from foundations and tech companies, including funding from TikTok.

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Charlie Sykes recently stepped down as host of the Bulwark Podcast. He's a regular commentator on MSNBC, and has written a number of books. He tells the story here of his political journey, from being a page for the Wisconsin delegation at the 1968 Democratic National Convention in Chicago, to being a working journalist increasingly disenchanted with conventional liberalism, to finding a home in Reagan Republicanism and becoming more of a political warrior than he ever meant to be--and then leaving the whole thing behind over Trumpism.

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Today, we’re bringing you an episode of Arbiters of Truth, our series on the information ecosystem.

On March 18, the Supreme Court heard oral arguments in Murthy v. Missouri, concerning the potential First Amendment implications of government outreach to social media platforms—what’s sometimes known as jawboning. The case arrived at the Supreme Court with a somewhat shaky evidentiary record, but the legal questions raised by government requests or demands to remove online content are real.

To make sense of it all, Lawfare Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic and Matt Perault, the Director of the Center on Technology Policy at UNC-Chapel Hill, called up Alex Abdo, the Litigation Director of the Knight First Amendment Institute at Columbia University. While the law is unsettled, the Supreme Court seemed skeptical of the plaintiffs’ claims of government censorship. But what is the best way to determine what contacts and government requests are and aren't permissible?

If you’re interested in more, you can read the Knight Institute’s amicus brief in Murthy here and Knight’s series on jawboning—including Perault’s reflections—here.

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Since World War II, the United States and its currency, the dollar, have come to play a central role in the broader global economy. And in recent decades, policymakers have used this role as a weapon, cutting off access to malign actors and punishing those who act contrary to U.S. national security interests. But cultivating such primacy has proven to be a double-edged sword, with more complicated ramifications for many Americans. 

In her new book “Paper Soldiers: How the Weaponization of the Dollar Changed the World Order,” Bloomberg reporter Saleha Mohsin digs into the history of the dollar’s role in the global economy and what its increasing weaponization may mean moving forward. Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson recently joined Mohsin to discuss her new book and what we should all know about the new economic and political moment we are living through. 

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Last May, Microsoft announced that a Chinese state-sponsored hacking group, Volt Typhoon, appeared to be targeting U.S. critical infrastructure and entities abroad in part through establishing a presence in a malware-infected network, or botnet, consisting of old devices located in the United States. At the end of January, the Justice Department announced it had removed the botnet from hundreds of American devices. 

Cybersecurity experts Timothy Edgar and Paul Rosenzweig both wrote articles for Lawfare discussing the Volt Typhoon intrusion and the U.S. response. But the authors take away very different lessons from the intrusion. Edgar argued that although the removal of the botnet was a success in terms of cybersecurity, the legal theory the government relied on for conducting this operation has dangerous privacy implications. Rosenzweig, on the other hand, contended that the Volt Typhoon breach illuminates flawed assumptions at the core of the U.S. cybersecurity strategy, which he says must be reexamined. 

Lawfare Research Fellow Matt Gluck spoke with Edgar and Rosenzweig about why the Volt Typhoon intrusion and the U.S. response that followed matter for the future of U.S. cybersecurity and privacy, how the government should weigh security and privacy when responding to cyber intrusions, whether nuclear conflict is a good analogy for cyber conflict, and much more.

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Friday morning in Fulton County, Georgia, Judge Scott McAfee issued an opinion in the matter of the disqualification of District Attorney Fani Willis. It was not a complete victory for anybody. The defense didn't get Fani Willis booted from the case, but they did get Nathan Wade booted from the case. And Fani Willis has to contend with the loss of her special prosecutor, as well as some scorching criticism from the judge.  

Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes discussed it all on a live recording of the Lawfare Podcast with Lawfare Legal Fellow and Courts Correspondent Anna Bower, and Andrew Fleischman, a Georgia defense attorney and frequent Fani Willis critic. They talked about what Judge McAfee did, whether there is a serious prospect for a successful appeal, what Fani Willis's next moves are likely to be, and whether there's going to be a spree of plea deals in response. They also talked about whether the case is now back on track and headed to trial.

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This week on Rational Security, Alan, Quinta, and Scott got together for the last time before Scott’s paternity leave to talk over the week’s big national security news, including:

• “Kitchen Table Issues.” President Biden delivered a feisty State of the Union last week, one that took aim at both those worrying about his age and his apparent 2024 rival, former President Donald Trump. But what does his handling of key national security issues, ranging from Ukraine to Gaza, tell us about where the country is headed, and what can we gather from the response from the other party?
• “Tik Tik Tik...” The end may be nigh for TikTok in the United States, at least in its current incarnation. The House has passed a bill that will ban TikTok from app stores beginning in the Fall unless its Chinese owners divest—legislation that President Biden has said he will sign, but that former President Trump recently flipped on. Where is this new major social media platform headed, at least in the United States?
• “Trying to Stay Alive.” Policymakers are desperately working to clear the domestic legal hurdles in both Kenya and the United States for an ad hoc peacekeeping mission to Haiti, aimed at stemming the surge of gang violence there. But will the 1,000 Kenyan police officers set to be deployed be enough to restore peace and security to the country?

For object lessons, Alan doubled down on WBUH’s podcast “The Big Dig,” a compelling story of sex, lies, and infrastructure (or at least one of the three). Quinta finally saw Oppenheimer and gave it a “meh.” And Scott gave tribute to the glory of his 30s, now that they have left him.

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It's another episode of “Trump's Trials and Tribulations,” recorded on March 14 in front of a live audience on YouTube and Riverside. Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editor Roger Parloff and Lawfare Legal Fellow and Courts Correspondent Anna Bower to talk about the Thursday hearing in the Mar-a-Lago case and everything Judge Cannon still needs to rule on. They also discussed how Judge McAfee may rule in whether to disqualify Fulton County DA Fani Willis and why the New York City trial may be delayed by a month. And of course, they took audience questions from Lawfare Material Supporters on Riverside.

To be able to submit questions to the panelists, become a Material Supporter at lawfaremedia.org/support.

This episode was recorded on Thursday, which was before Judge McAfee issued his order on the motion to disqualify the Fulton County DA's Office from the 2020 Georgia election interference case. We recorded a separate live podcast on that decision, which you can find now on YouTube or listen to it on Monday on the Lawfare Podcast feed.

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From November 10, 2018: With the firing of Jeff Sessions and his replacement with former U.S. attorney Matthew Whitaker, all eyes this week are focused on whether Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation of Russian interference in the 2016 election and possible coordination between the Trump campaign and the Russians will get to run its full course. But even before the Sessions firing, Benjamin Wittes and Paul Rosenzweig had inquiries into the presidency on their minds. On Tuesday morning, they sat down to discuss Paul’s recent 12-part lecture series on presidential investigations released through the online educational platform The Great Courses.

They talked about how Paul structured the lecture series, Paul’s own experience on Independent Counsel Ken Starr’s team investigating the Clinton White House, and the course’s relevance to the Mueller investigation.

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Tim Mak is the editor, writer, and entrepreneur behind the Substack site, The Counteroffensive, which covers the Ukraine-Russia war through personal stories on the ground in Ukraine. He has been in Ukraine since the beginning of the full-scale invasion when he was an NPR reporter, and he has done some of the best English-language reporting from that country.

Lawfare Editor-in-Chef Benjamin Wittes spoke with Mak, who is reporting from the Ukrainian capital of Kyiv. They talked about two years of the full-scale invasion, about a decisive battle early in the war over Antonov Airport, about whether the Ukrainian military effort is sustainable, and about the current mood in Ukraine and how people are feeling about America as Congress dithers on Ukraine aid.

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If you’re listening to this podcast, chances are you’ve heard stories about the CIA’s experiments with drugs, particularly LSD, during the infamous MKUltra program. But you may not know that the characters involved in that dubious effort connect to one of the 20th Century’s most famous and revered scientists, the anthropologist Margaret Mead. 

Shane Harris talked with historian Benjamin Breen about this new book, Tripping on Utopia, which tells the story of how Mead and her close circle launched a movement to expand human consciousness, decades before the counterculture of the 1960s popularized, and ultimately stigmatized, psychedelic drugs. Mead and Gregory Bateson--her collaborator and one-time husband--are at the center of a story that includes the WWII-era Office of Strategic Services, a shady cast of CIA agents and operatives, Beat poets, and the pioneers of the Information Age. 

Psychedelics are having a renaissance, with federal regulators poised to legalize their use - Breen’s book is an engrossing history that explores the roots of that movement and how it influenced and collided with the U.S. national security establishment. 

Books, movies, and other points of interest discussed in this conversation include: 

• Tripping on Utopia: Margaret Mead, the Cold War, and the Troubled Birth of Psychedelic Science by Benjamin Breen 
• Tripped: Nazi Germany, the CIA, and the Dawn of the Psychedelic Age by Norman Ohler 
• MKUltra 
• The intelligence community’s research on “truth drugs” 
• The Manchurian Candidate 
• The Good Shepherd 
• Poisoner in Chief: Sidney Gottlieb and the CIA Search for Mind Control by Stephen Kinzer 
• The Men Who Stare at Goats by Jon Ronson 
• Ghost Hunters: William James and the Search for Scientific Proof of Life After Death by Deborah Blum 
• “Operation Delirium” by Raffi Khatchadourian in The New Yorker 

Also check out: 

• Ben’s website 
• Ben’s Substack 
• Ben on Twitter 

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On March 13, Judge McAfee released an order quashing six counts in the Fulton County electoral interference indictment against former President Trump and his numerous co-defendants. These charges were related to alleged solicitation of violations of oath of office, and Judge McAfee quashed the charges due to insufficient evidence.

To talk over the order and its implications, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Legal Fellow Anna Bower and Anthony Michael Kreis for a live recording of the Lawfare Podcast on YouTube. They talked about what exactly a demurrer is and what led Judge McAfee to dismiss these counts. They also talked about what this order could say about how Judge McAfee might rule on the efforts to disqualify Fani Willis, whether it matters that these charges were dismissed, and whether the District Attorney will go back to a grand jury.

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On February 28, the Biden administration issued an Executive Order (EO) entitled “Preventing Access to Americans’ Bulk Sensitive Personal Data and United States Government-Related Data by Countries of Concern.” Lawfare Senior Editor Stephanie Pell sat down with Devin DeBacker and Lee Licata, the Chief and one of the Deputy Chiefs of the Foreign Investment Review Section in the National Security Division at the Department of Justice, to talk about this new EO and the ways in which it attempts to prevent certain countries of concern from accessing Americans’ sensitive personal data. They talked about the types of data transactions the EO is intended to regulate, what it is not intended to regulate, and the forthcoming rule-making process that the DOJ will run.

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Progress in deepfake technology and artificial intelligence can make manipulated media hard to identify, making deepfakes an appealing tool for governments seeking to advance their national security objectives. But in a low-trust information environment, balancing the risks and rewards of a government-run deepfake campaign is trickier than it may seem.

To talk through how democracies should think about using deepfakes, Lawfare's Fellow in Technology Policy and Law, Eugenia Lostri, was joined by Daniel Byman, Senior Fellow at the Center for Strategic & International Studies and professor at Georgetown University; Daniel Linna, Director of Law and Technology Initiatives at Northwestern University; and V.S. Subrahmanian, the Walter P. Murphy Professor of Computer Science and Buffett Faculty Fellow at Northwestern University. They recently published a report examining two critical points: the questions that a government agency should address before deploying a deepfake, and the governance mechanisms that should be in place to assess its risks and benefits.

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On March 4, the Supreme Court ruled in Trump v. Anderson, holding that states cannot disqualify Donald Trump from appearing on the presidential ballot under Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment. Section 3 bars former officeholders who have since engaged in insurrection from taking future public office—and in recent months, a slew of lawsuits from voters and advocacy groups have pointed to the provision in seeking to strike Trump from the ballot in various states for his conduct on Jan. 6. The Court’s judgment rules out that possibility—but leaves a surprising amount of questions unsettled, in a way that may queue up chaos in the coming months.

To make sense of the Court’s ruling, Lawfare Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic spoke with fellow Senior Editor Roger Parloff, who has been closely watching the Section 3 cases; Ned Foley, an expert in election law at The Ohio State University; and Gerard Magliocca of Indiana University, who has been studying Section 3 since before it was cool. 

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This week on Rational Security, Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien joined Alan, Quinta, and Scott to discuss the week's big national security news, including:

• “Operation Humbled Drop.” After months of unsuccessfully pushing the Israeli government to allow more aid into besieged Gaza, the Biden administration has taken matters into its own hands and begun airlifting it in itself. But are its efforts just for show, or a sign that it is abandoning its “bear hug” approach to Israeli Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu? And what will it mean for the flow of U.S. assistance to Israel, especially given legal restrictions Israel’s actions arguably violate? 
• “Sound (Legal Reasoning) and Fury(ous Agreement).” This week, the Supreme Court surprised no one by unanimously reversing the Colorado Supreme Court and holding that former President Trump cannot be kept off the 2024 ballot there for having committed insurrection through his involvement in Jan. 6—a move the justices had strongly telegraphed in oral arguments in February. But for a unanimous outcome, the matter did prove surprisingly divisive, with the liberal minority accusing the conservative majority of overreaching to save Trump from possible future disqualification through other avenues. What should we make of the divided opinions in this case? And where does it leave Trump?
• “Smog of War.” Even as the New York Times finds itself in the midst of an internal (and external) controversy around its coverage of Hamas’s alleged use of sexual assault during the Oct. 7 massacre, the United Nations has released a report lending credibility to the conclusion that sexual assault occurred. How should we parse the competing accounts around this heated and incredibly difficult topic?

For object lessons, Alan—much to his surprise—recommended the Formula 1 documentary Formula 1: Drive to Survive. Quinta flagged another Sen. Menendez superseding indictment to add to New Jersey’s state flag. Scott hit both sides of the RatSec listenership with recommendations: one for “Bucking the Buck,” Daniel McDowell’s excellent deep dive into de-dollarization, and another for his parasocial friends on The Ringer NFL Show in its various iterations, who he hopes will give D.C. the regional sports podcast it deserves. And Tyler celebrated the spectacle that is Medieval Times as well as the fact that the serfs there have recently unionized.

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It's another episode of “Trump's Trials and Tribulations,” recorded on March 7 in front of a live audience on YouTube and Riverside. Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editor Roger Parloff and Lawfare Legal Fellow and Courts Correspondent Anna Bower to talk about recent filings in the Southern District of Florida and what Judge Cannon needs to rule on. They also discussed motions filed in Fulton County, the Supreme Court's ruling overturning the Colorado Supreme Court's decision to bar Trump from the 2024 ballot, and what, if anything, is happening in the Jan. 6 case in Washington. And of course, they took audience questions from Lawfare Material Supporters on Riverside.

To be able to submit questions to the panelists, become a Material Supporter at lawfaremedia.org/support.

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From September 28, 2019: At the Texas Tribune Festival in Austin, Texas, Benjamin Wittes sat down in front of a live audience with Judge John Bates, a senior district judge on the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia. Bates has served on the court since 2001, and from 2009 to 2013, he served as the presiding judge of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance (FISA) Court. Wittes and Judge Bates talked about the role of the FISA Court, its procedures and caseload, its recent prominence in the news, and how the court might respond to cases that have an overtly political context.

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The practice of surveillance capitalism—the widespread private collection and commodification of personal data—is well understood. Less well understood is the extent to which the U.S. government purchases this data in the commercial marketplace to use it for intelligence and law enforcement purposes. 

Byron Tau, when he was a reporter with The Wall Street Journal, did more than anyone to bring this practice to public light. Jack Goldsmith sat down recently with Tau to discuss his new book on the topic, “Means of Control: How the Hidden Alliance of Tech and Government is Creating a New American Surveillance State.” They discussed how the private broker market works, why the government is able to purchase bulk private data with relatively few legal restrictions, and the threat to privacy and civil liberties that inheres in the practice. They also discussed why this form of data is so important to the government and the prospects for reform of the relatively unregulated practice.

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Jonna Mendez advanced in her Central Intelligence Agency career to become Chief of Disguise despite the many institutional challenges to women's promotions. And now she has written a memoir, In True Face, about it all.

David Priess spoke with Jonna about career options for women at CIA in the early Cold War, her own start there in the 1960s, how photography classes set her on a path that ultimately led to service as Chief of Disguise, her interactions over the decades with Tony Mendez, the tandem-couple problem for intelligence professionals, semi-animated mask technology and other CIA disguises, her experience briefing President George H. W. Bush in the Oval Office, how the story behind the Canadian Caper became declassified and eventually the movie Argo, the International Spy Museum, and more.

Among the works mentioned in this episode:

The book In True Face by Jonna Mendez

"How the CIA Used a Fake Sci-Fi Flick to Rescue Americans from Tehran," by Joshuah Bearman, WIRED, April 24, 2007

The movie The Ides of March

The movie Argo

The book Argo by Antonio Mendez and Matt Baglio

The book The Master of Disguise by Antonio Mendez

The movie Mission Impossible

The TV show The Americans

The TV show Homeland

The movie Casino Royale

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

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Everyone agrees that the United States has a serious cybersecurity problem. But how to fix it—that's another question entirely. Over the past decade, a consensus has emerged across multiple administrations that NIST—the National Institute of Standards and Technology—is the right body to set cybersecurity standards for both the government and private industry. Alan Rozenshtein, Associate Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota and Senior Editor at Lawfare, spoke with Bryan Choi, who argues that this faith is misplaced. Choi is an associate professor of both law and computer science and engineering at The Ohio State University. He just published a new white paper in Lawfare's ongoing Digital Social Contract paper series exploring NIST's history in setting information technology standards and why that history should make us skeptical that NIST can fulfill the cybersecurity demands that are increasingly being placed on it.

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Executive branch constraints and the posture of the media have shifted in significant ways over the past two decades. Lyrissa Lidsky and Christina Koningisor, law professors at the University of Florida and the University of California San Francisco, respectively, argue in a forthcoming law review article that these changes—including the erosion of certain post-Watergate reforms and the decline of local news—have created a First Amendment disequilibrium. They contend that the twin assumptions of the press’s power to extract information and check government authority on the one hand, and the limitations on executive branch power on the other, that undergird First Amendment jurisprudence no longer hold, leaving the press at a significant First Amendment disadvantage. 

Lawfare Research Fellow Matt Gluck spoke with Lidsky and Koningisor about the current state of First Amendment jurisprudence, the ways in which the press used to be stronger, executive branch power on the federal and state levels, how the authors think our current First Amendment architecture should change, and more.

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In mid-February, Chinese cybersecurity firm i-Soon appeared to suffer a massive data leak, which offered unprecedented insight into the operations of the company, known to contract for many Chinese government agencies. The more than 500 documents include conversations between employees, sales pitches, and internal documents, and expose the firm’s hacking methods, tools, and victims. They also show in what ways the offensive cyber industries in China and the U.S. are surprisingly similar.

Eugenia Lostri, Lawfare’s Fellow in Technology Policy and Law, sat down with Winnona DeSombre Bernsen, nonresident fellow at the Atlantic Council, to talk through the leaks and her research into the key similarities and differences between the Chinese companies and their counterparts. They talked about how the Chinese government hoards vulnerabilities, the similar contracting headaches that firms in the U.S. and China suffer from, and how the findings from this leak can be used to develop better norms.

You can listen to the podcast conversation, “China’s Approach to Software Vulnerabilities Reporting,” with Dakota Cary and Kristin Del Rosso here. The conversation, “Rules for Civilian Hackers in War with Tilman Rodenhäuser and Mauro Vignati” is here.

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As the 2024 presidential election approaches, a vital question is whether the legal architecture governing the election is well crafted to prevent corruption and abuse. In their new book, “How to Steal a Presidential Election,” Lawrence Lessig and Matthew Seligman argue that despite the Electoral Count Reform Act of 2022, serious abuse of the presidential election rules remains a live possibility. Jack Goldsmith sat down with Lessig to learn why. They discussed the continuing possibility of vice presidential mischief, the complex role of faithless electors, strategic behavior related to recounts, and the threat of rogue governors. They also pondered whether any system of rules can regulate elections in the face of widespread bad faith by the actors involved.

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This week on Rational Security, Quinta and Scott were joined by Molly Reynolds and (a prerecorded) Anna Bower to talk through some of the week’s big national security news, including:

• “The Shutdown Rut.” Congress once again has the government on the verge of a shutdown. And while Speaker of the House Mike Johnson has reportedly committed to avoiding one, demands from within his caucus may make that hard—just as they continue to obstruct a path forward for the national security supplemental that contains essential assistance for Ukraine. Is there a way forward? Or are we shutdown-bound?
• “Sex, Lies, and Geolocation.” The criminal case against former President Trump and more than a dozen codefendants in Fulton County, Georgia, remains on hold as defense attorneys continue to dig into the details of Fani Willis’s romantic relationship with subordinate Nathan Wade. Over the last week, we’ve seen filings on geolocation data and the examination of Wade’s former attorney. But does any of this add up to a potentially disqualifying conflict of interest?
• “If This Segment Were a Newspaper, How Much Would It Weigh?” The Supreme Court heard extended oral arguments over the constitutionality of controversial Florida and Texas laws seeking to regulate content moderation on social media platforms this week. But amid some very interesting lines of questioning—including one inquiring the weight of YouTube if it were a newspaper—it wasn’t clear the Court was really ready and interested in delving into the technical details. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? And where might the Court come out?

For object lessons, Quinta answered Justice Alito’s recent inquiry, “If YouTube were a newspaper, how much would it weigh?” Scott sang the praises of Bianco DiNapoli’s fire-roasted tomatoes. And Molly recommended the podcast Short Walk, about one of the stranger state-level political controversies in recent memory.

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It's another episode of “Trump's Trials and Tribulations,” recorded on February 29 in front of a live audience on YouTube and Riverside. Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with Lawfare Senior Editors Quinta Jurecic and Roger Parloff, Lawfare Courts Correspondent and Legal Fellow Anna Bower, and Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes to talk about the Supreme Court's decision to hear Trump's presidential immunity claim and how much the D.C. trial may be delayed. They also discussed this week's hearing in Fulton County, previewed what to expect at the Friday Mar-a-Lago hearing in Florida, and talked about what is happening with the New York criminal trial. And of course, they took audience questions from Lawfare Material Supporters on Riverside.

To be able to submit questions to the panelists, become a Material Supporter at lawfaremedia.org/support.

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From May 26, 2020: On Wednesday, NASA and the SpaceX Corporation are scheduled to send astronauts back into outer space from U.S. soil for the first time since the U.S. space shuttle program ended in 2011. The launch promises to kick off a new era in space exploration, one that will see the increased use of outer space for both public and private purposes, as well as greater involvement by private corporations and other unconventional actors in space exploration. To discuss the legal and policy challenges of this new era, Scott R. Anderson spoke with three lawyers working at the bleeding edge of space law and policy: Professor Timiebi Aganaba-Jeanty of Arizona State University and its Sandra Day O'Connor College of Law; Brian Israel, a former public and private sector space lawyer who teaches space law at Berkeley Law; and Daniel Porras, currently a space security fellow at the U.N. Institute for Disarmament Research.

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Following Hamas’s attacks on Oct. 7, the Israeli military retaliated with a relentless and devastating air war. By mid-December, Israeli forces had struck more than 22,000 targets in Gaza, and the Israeli military said it had used artificial intelligence to select many of them. The targeting system, called “The Gospel” by the IDF, was not the first time a military used AI on the battlefield, but the high number of civilian casualties raised red flags for many.

Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien sat down with Lauren Kahn, a Senior Research Analyst at Georgetown’s Center for Security and Emerging Technology (CSET) who focuses on the national security applications of artificial intelligence. They discussed how autonomous and AI-enabled weapons are being used and will be used in war, “the current ground rules for the age of AI in warfare,” and why Lauren favors confidence-building measures and other incremental steps, rather than an all-out ban. And despite running through a few nightmare scenarios, we learned why Lauren remains hopeful for the responsible and ethical use of AI for defense.  

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We all know how superpower competition spurred one giant leap for mankind on the lunar surface in July 1969. But the story of how the Moon and its tides affect national security is deeper and wider than most of us realize.

David Priess explored this intersection with science journalist Rebecca Boyle, author of the new book Our Moon, about her path to writing about astronomy, Anaxagoras, Julius Caesar, lunar versus solar calendars, the Battle of Tarawa in 1943, the genesis of NOAA, tides and flooding, Johannes Kepler, Jules Verne and science fiction about travel to the Moon, lunar missions and the Cold War, the Moon's origins, the return of lunar geopolitical competition, prospects for a radio telescope on the far side of the Moon, and more.

Among the works mentioned in this episode:

The book Our Moon by Rebecca Boyle

The book From the Earth to the Moon by Jules Verne

The movie Fantasia

"Massive New Seamount Discovered in International Waters Off Guatemala," from the Schmidt Ocean Institute, November 22, 2023

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

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Over the past several decades, financial sanctions have become one of the most widely used tools in the U.S. foreign policy arsenal. And since Russia’s invasion of Ukraine two years ago, the Biden administration has wielded them in a number of innovative ways. At the same time, some of these uses have also triggered concerns about U.S. overreach, something that could have consequences for both U.S. national security and the health of the U.S. economy. 

To better understand how the U.S. government is approaching its financial sanctions policies today, Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson and Lawfare Contributing Editor Brandon Van Grack sat down with the man who manages them: Brad Smith, the Director of the Office of Foreign Assets Control (or “OFAC”) at the U.S. Department of the Treasury. A veteran of U.S. sanctions policy, Smith walked through some of the history of sanctions, lessons the Biden administration has learned from past efforts, and how these lessons are being applied to new challenges, including from Russia. 

This is the latest entry in our special “The Regulators” series, co-sponsored with Morrison Foerster, in which Brandon and Scott sit down with some of the senior officials working at the front lines of U.S. national security policy. 

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On Feb. 13, Senator Ron Wyden released a letter documenting an investigation his office has been conducting into the activities of Near Intelligence Inc., a data broker that allegedly enabled an anti-abortion organization to target anti-abortion messaging and ads to people visiting 600 Planned Parenthood clinics across the United States. Lawfare Senior Editor Stephanie Pell sat down with Justin Sherman, CEO of Global Cyber Strategies and a Senior Fellow at Duke University’s Sanford School of Public Policy, to discuss this investigation. They talked about the various players in the data broker ecosystem that enable these invasive practices, the lack of federal legislation governing and preventing these activities, and what actions the FTC might be able to take against Near Intelligence Inc. 

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The Supreme Court heard hours and hours of oral arguments today brought by a trade association called NetChoice against laws restricting content moderation in Florida and Texas. It's the big First Amendment case of the year, and we sat through the whole oral argument.

Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes spoke with Lawfare Senior Editors Quinta Jurecic and Alan Rozenshtein, and Kyle Langvardt of the University of Nebraska at Lincoln. They talked about where the justices seem to be leaning on this case, why they think the record is inadequate and underdeveloped, and why they're grumpy about it. They also talked about whether we can predict where they seem to be headed and about why this case that doesn't involve Section 230 seems to involve Section 230.

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At a South Carolina campaign rally on Feb. 10, former President Donald Trump told a crowd of supporters that while he was president he told “one of the presidents of a big country” in the NATO alliance that he would not protect that country from a Russian invasion if that country didn’t pay. Trump then said, “In fact, I would encourage them to do whatever the hell they want. You got to pay. You got to pay your bills.” 

Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien sat down with Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson to talk through Trump’s NATO comments, why they’re rattling European allies, whether a U.S. president could destroy the alliance, and how Congress might stop it. They also talked about why everyone here at Lawfare calls Section 1250A of the recent National Defense Authorization Act the “Anderson Saves NATO” provision.

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This week on Rational Security, Alan, Quinta, and Scott got together to talk over the week’s big national security news, including:

• “Is Revanchism a Dish Best Served Cold?” Russia boosters seem to be feeling bullish for the first time in a long time. This week, its forces captured the strategic town of Avdiivka from Ukrainian forces, who have been weakened by bickering among their Western allies. And imprisoned Russian dissident Alexei Navalny met with a tragic and highly suspicious end, just as Western governments came together at the Munich Security Conference. Is Russia right to be feeling its oats at this moment?
• “Bibi Steps.” As Israel prepares to mount a controversial military operation against Rafah—the last refuge for many displaced civilians in Gaza—there are cracks between the government of Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu and the Biden administration, who in recent weeks have shown an increased willingness to target settler violence in the West Bank with sanctions, impose some conditionality on U.S. security assistance, and turn to the U.N. Security Council for possible support for a “temporary ceasefire,” even over Israeli objections. Are these signs of a bigger divide to come? And what will the impact be on the trajectory of the Gaza conflict?
• “Won’t Somebody PLEASE Think of the Children?!” The Kids Online Safety Act (or KOSA) is back in somewhat modified form, promising to introduce new regulations into how our children engage with online platforms—this time with broad bipartisan support, including from the Biden administration. But will it actually help protect children online? Or only put vulnerable communities more at risk?

For object lessons, Alan recommended the Oscar-nominated Jeffrey Wright vehicle, American Fiction. Quinta endorsed “The Book of Love,” a spooky fantasy mystery and the debut novel by celebrated short story author Kelly Link. And Scott urged mid-Atlantic listeners to take their toddlers to Baltimore’s National Aquarium and spring for the wonderful family sunrise tour. Or for nature lovers not on the East Coast, check out the new podcast one-off Birds Are Cool, featuring Goat Rodeo’s own Cara Shillenn.

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It's another episode of “Trump's Trials and Tribulations,” recorded on February 22 in front of a live audience on YouTube and Zoom. Lawfare Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic sat down with Lawfare Senior Editor Roger Parloff, Lawfare Legal Fellow and Courts Correspondent Anna Bower, and Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes to talk about the continued drama in Fulton County and what has happened since the blockbuster hearings last week. They also checked in on the Southern District of Florida to see what Judge Cannon is up to and discussed what we are waiting on in D.C. And of course, they took audience questions from Lawfare Material Supporters on Zoom.

To be able to submit questions to the panelists, you should become a Material Supporter at lawfaremedia.org/support.

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From September 15, 2020: Alexei Navalny is Russia's most prominent dissident, opposition leader, and anti-corruption crusader—and the latest such person to be poisoned by the Vladimir Putin regime, which, of course, it denies. When we recorded this episode, Navalny's condition was improving as he received medical treatment in Germany. To discuss Navalny's career and why Putin chose now to attack him, Benjamin Wittes sat down with Alina Polyakova, President and CEO of the Center for European Policy Analysis. They talked about how Navalny has become such a thorn in the side of the Putin regime, why Putin keeps poisoning people as opposed to killing them by other means, and why the Russians are so ineffective at poisonings when they undertake them.

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Since a grand jury in Fulton County, Georgia, handed up an indictment in August of former President Donald Trump and 18 other defendants for their efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 election in Georgia, all eyes had been on the defendants’ behavior and their legal fate. That was until an explosive filing by one of the defendants, Mike Roman, alleged that Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis had engaged in a kickback scheme through a romantic relationship she had with an outside prosecutor Willis had hired to participate in the case, Nathan Wade. Roman asked the presiding judge, Scott McAfee, to disqualify Willis and her office from the election case. Willis and Wade have since acknowledged their relationship but claim that Willis did not financially benefit from it.

Last week, Judge McAfee held a two-day evidentiary hearing to determine whether Willis and Wade’s relationship presented a conflict of interest, requiring the removal of Willis and her office from the case. Lawfare Research Fellow Matt Gluck discussed the hearing and what’s likely to happen next with Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes, Lawfare Legal Fellow and Courts Correspondent Anna Bower, and Georgia trial and appellate lawyer and Fulton County court watcher Andrew Fleischman.

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Joe Biden took office with a big ambition: To repair America’s reputation abroad and set the country on a new path, where foreign policy would be crafted with the middle class in mind. So writes journalist Alexander Ward, whose new book, The Internationalists: The Fight to Restore American Foreign Policy After Trump, chronicles Biden’s first two years in the White House. 

The central players in Ward’s cast as the president’s senior advisers, chief among them National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan, who, four years earlier, had expected to be serving in the Hillary Clinton administration. Ward joined Shane Harris to talk about the Biden team's early efforts to sketch out a new agenda, the disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan, and the triumphs of the early days of war in Ukraine. His book offers a detailed, behind-the-scenes look at what may be one of the most experienced teams of foreign policy experts in a generation. 

Ward is a national security reporter at Politico. He was part of the reporting team behind one of the biggest scoops in recent memory, the leak of a draft opinion by the Supreme Court that overturned Roe v. Wade. Ward was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize for his reporting. 

Among the works mentioned in this episode:

Ward’s book, The Internationalists: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/704738/the-internationalists-by-alexander-ward/ 

An excerpt from the book: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/02/19/jake-sullivan-globalization-biden-00141697 

Ward’s newsletter at Politico: https://www.politico.com/newsletters/national-security-daily  

Ward’s scoop on the Supreme Court’s abortion ruling: https://www.politico.com/news/2022/05/02/supreme-court-abortion-draft-opinion-00029473 

Ward on Twitter: https://twitter.com/alexbward?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor 

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As a new report on the intimidation of state and local officeholders from the Brennan Center for Justice points out, “The January 6 insurrection at the Capitol seemed to mark a new peak in extremist intimidation targeting public officials. But it was hardly the only act of political violence to break the period of relative stability that followed the assassinations of the 1960s.” Citing the 2017 shooting of Rep. Steve Scalise, last year’s hammer attack on Paul Pelosi, and many other cases, the report paints a troubling picture of today’s climate of political violence in America. 

To talk through the report and its implications, Lawfare Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic and Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien sat down with Maya Kornberg, a Research Fellow at the Brennan Center’s Elections and Government Program and one of the report’s authors. They discussed how Maya and her team surveyed so many state and local officials across a number of jurisdictions, the pervasive risks and threats those officeholders face, and how these threats are distorting U.S. democracy as a whole.

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The advocacy group Protect Democracy last month issued an updated version of its report entitled, “The Authoritarian Playbook.” The new report is called, “The Authoritarian Playbook for 2025: How an authoritarian president will dismantle our democracy and what we can do to protect it.” It is a fascinating compilation of things that Donald Trump has promised to do and how they could likely be expected to affect American democracy if he is elected to a second term in office. 

To discuss the report, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes spoke with two of its authors: Genevieve Nadeau and Erica Newland, both of Protect Democracy. They talked about what's new in the report, how much of it is speculation and how much of it is simply taking Donald Trump's words seriously, opportunities to mitigate the most dire consequences of which the report warns, and whether this is just baked into the American presidency when occupied by a truly authoritarian personality. 

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The conflict in Gaza is headed toward a critical juncture. Israeli political leaders have signaled their intent to assault Rafah, one of the final safe havens for displaced Gazan civilians—a move that U.S. and other international leaders fear could trigger a humanitarian crisis, or the long-term displacement of Palestinians from Gaza. Meanwhile, negotiations for both a ceasefire and a longer term resolution of the crisis are ongoing, but have little to show thus far. 

To discuss the many moving pieces of the Gaza conflict, Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down once again with Joel Braunold, Managing Director at the S. Daniel Abraham Center for Middle East Peace and someone who has long been involved in Middle East peace efforts. They discussed the current state of Israel’s military operations, how it is impacting (and being impacted by) domestic politics in Israel and elsewhere, and the significance of recent events ranging from the International Court of Justice’s grant of provisional measures to the Biden administration’s efforts to sanction the perpetrators of West Bank settler violence—all with an eye for better understanding where this crisis may yet be headed.

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From December 10, 2016: This week at the Hoover Book Soiree, Jack Goldsmith interviewed Christopher Moran, a professor at the University of Warwick, on his book “Company Confessions: Secrets, Memoirs, and the CIA.” Moran's work is a history of CIA memoirs, but it's also a history of the Agency itself and its efforts to shape its image in the public eye. How does an organization whose work depends on keeping secrets justify its efforts within a democratic society?

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This week, Alan, Quinta, and Scott were once again joined by co-host emeritus Benjamin Wittes to talk through the week's big national security news, including:

• “Constitutional Annoyance.” Last week, the Supreme Court heard oral arguments in Trump v. Anderson, the case weighing whether former President Trump’s involvement in Jan. 6 should disqualify him from being able to stand as a candidate in 2024 under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. And the justices, for once, seemed almost unified in their skepticism of the idea that he should be—though there was far less agreement as to why. Where is this case headed? And what will its ultimate impact be on the 2024 election and beyond?
• “Putting the Hur(t) On.” Special Counsel Robert Hur completed his investigation into President Biden’s alleged mishandling of classified documents last week and, while he opted not to bring any charges, his lengthy final report has caused a stir: not just for laying out Biden’s apparent mishandling of classified documents over an extended period of time but also for citing Biden’s advanced age and apparent memory issues as grounds for not prosecuting—observations that have reignited anxieties regarding Biden’s capacity to stand for reelection. Was Hur out of line or just doing his job in making these observations? And how will his conclusions impact events moving forward, including the prosecution of former President Trump for his own mishandling of classified documents?
• “‘I Can’t Pay the Rent,’ ‘But You Must Pay the Rent!’” Former President Trump has resumed his role as enforcer over the defense spending level of NATO members, suggesting most recently that he would encourage Russia to do whatever it wants with any members who fail to meet their commitments—comments that have triggered new anxiety over how NATO may fare in a second Trump presidency. How serious are these comments? What should folks be doing in response?

For object lessons, Alan recommended the weirdness of Donald Glover's new spy remake, "Mr. & Mrs. Smith." Quinta urged listeners to check out a recent New York Times piece on "How Mark Meadows Became the Least Trusted Man in Washington." Scott mourned the end of football season by endorsing the sportsfan comedy of Annie Agar. And Ben announced that he had completed his quest to identify the worst rhetorical question headline ever.

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It’s another episode of “Trump’s Trials and Tribulations,” this one recorded before a live audience on Zoom on Friday afternoon. It’s been a wild week in Trump coverage. We’ve got a judgment from New York, we’ve got the best evidentiary hearing ever held in Fulton County, we’ve got Tyler McBrien at the scheduling conference for the New York criminal trial, and we’ve got updates from Florida and Washington.

Joining Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes were Lawfare Senior Editor Roger Parloff, Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien, and Lawfare Legal Fellow and Courts Correspondent Anna Bower, and they covered it all. They also took audience questions from Lawfare Material Supporters and, this week, guests.

To be able to submit questions to the panelists, you should become a Material Supporter at lawfaremedia.org/support.

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