The Lawfare Podcast

In a live conversation on October 1, Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson spoke to Managing Director at S. Daniel Abraham Center for Middle East Peace Joel Braunold about President Trump’s proposed peace plan for Gaza and what it means for the future of Iraeli-Palestinian relations.

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This week, Scott sat down with his colleagues Alan Rozenshtein and Anna Bower to talk through the week’s big national security news stories, including:

• “A Higher Loyalty.” The Justice Department appeared to bow to the demands of President Trump last week when, over the reported objections of several senior officials, it successfully sought the indictment of former FBI Director James Comey for allegedly false statements he made to Congress. But the prosecution is raising a lot of questions among legal experts about the procedures, the substance, and what exactly its odds are for success moving forward. What should we make of this move by the Justice Department? What does this tell us about the prospects for weaponization moving forward?
• “A Right to Bare Faces.” California has enacted a new law that, among other measures, will require law enforcement officers of all stripes to limit their use of face masks. But legal experts are torn on whether this policy can constitutionally apply to its clear target: the ICE personnel and other federal law enforcement officers who have started wearing masks for even routine law enforcement activities. How likely is the new law to achieve its goals?
• “Legal Code.” California has passed a first of its kind AI safety law, with the support (or at least acquiescence) of industry leaders. Does this point a way forward for AI safety legislation? And how will it make us safer?

In object lessons, the AI overlords completely take over. Alan is vibe coding his way to paying for his kids’ college tuition. Scott’s AI alter ego is making easier work of docket watching with NotebookLM. And even Anna, in search of Jimmy Kimmel jokes, gets a little AI anecdote in through her recent tour of NYC comedy clubs.

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Neil Chilson, Head of AI Policy at the Abundance Institute, and Gus Hurwitz, Senior Fellow and CTIC Academic Director at Penn Carey Law School and Director of Law & Economics Programs at the International Center for Law & Economics, join Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to explore how academics can overcome the silos and incentives that plague the Ivory Tower and positively contribute to the highly complex, evolving, and interdisciplinary work associated with AI governance.

The trio recorded this podcast live at the Institute for Humane Studies’s Technology, Liberalism, and Abundance Conference in Arlington, Virginia.

Read about Kevin's thinking on the topic here: https://www.civitasinstitute.org/research/draining-the-ivory-tower

Learn about the Conference: https://www.theihs.org/blog/curated-event/technology-abundance-and-liberalism/

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In a live conversation on September 29, Lawfare Senior Editor Kate Klonick spoke to Lawfare Editor in Chief Benjamin Wittes, Lawfare Senior Editor Anna Bower, and Professor of Practice at New York University Bob Bauer about the recent indictment of former FBI Director James Comey and what it says about the Trump administration’s ongoing politicization of the Department of Justice. This conversation is a part of our newly-launched show, Lawfare Live: The Day After, on Substack. You can join us for the next one by becoming a free subscriber to our Substack at lawfare.substack.com.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

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In a live conversation on YouTube, Lawfare Editor in Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editors Scott Anderson, Anna Bower, Eric Columbus, and Roger Parloff to discuss the Supreme Court granting certiorari in Rebecca Slaughter’s challenge to the president’s attempt to remove her as FTC commissioner, the indictment of James Comey, the Supreme Court allowing President Trump to withhold foreign aid funds, a lawsuit challenging warrantless immigration arrests in D.C., and so much more.You can find information on legal challenges to Trump administration actions here. And check out Lawfare’s new homepage on the litigation, new Bluesky account, and new WITOAD merch.

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From May 10, 2024: David Pozen is the Charles Keller Beekman Professor of Law at Columbia Law School and the author of the new book, “The Constitution of the War on Drugs,” which examines the relationship between the Constitution and drug prohibitions. He joined Jack Goldsmith to talk about the constitutional history of the war on drugs and why the drug war was not curbed by constitutional doctrines about personal autonomy, limits on the federal government’s power, the Equal Protection Clause, or the prohibition on cruel and unusual punishment. They also talked about whether the political process is working with advancing decriminalization and how this impacts the constitutional dimension of the drug war.

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From June 28, 2024: On June 26, the Supreme Court handed down its decision in Murthy v. Missouri—the “jawboning” case, concerning a First Amendment challenge to the government practice of pressuring social media companies to moderate content on their platforms. But instead of providing a clear answer one way or the other, the Court tossed out the case on standing. What now? Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes discussed the case with Kate Klonick of St. Johns University School of Law and Matt Perault, Director of the Center on Technology Policy at the University of North Carolina.

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Gavin Wilde, Nonresident Fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, adjunct lecturer at Johns Hopkins University, and author of the recent paper, “Pyrite or Panic? Deepfakes, Knowledge and the Institutional Backstop,” joins Lawfare’s Justin Sherman to discuss worries about deepfakes and their impact on information and society, the history of audiovisual media and what we can learn from previous evolutions in audiovisual technologies, and the role that fakery has played over the centuries in said media. They also discuss the social media and political context surrounding deepfake evolutions circa 2015; what happened, or not, with deepfakes in elections around the globe in 2024; and how institutions, policy, and law might pursue a less technology-centric approach to deepfakes and their information impacts.

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This week, Scott sat down with Senior Editors Kate Klonick and Eric Columbus to talk through the week’s big national security news stories, including: 

• “An Un-Airing of Grievances.” Since the assassination of conservative activist Charlie Kirk, some supporters of his—including several figures within the Trump administration—have actively sought to have individuals who have said critical or purportedly insensitive things about Kirk removed from their jobs or otherwise punished. This arguably came to a head after Jimmy Kimmel Live! was pulled from the air following statements by FCC Chairman Brendan Carr suggesting networks might face additional regulatory scrutiny for not addressing alleged misinformation about Kirk’s killer he purportedly put forward. And while Kimmel is now back on the air, several major local affiliates are refusing to air his show. How do these efforts comport with the First Amendment? And what do they mean for freedom of speech regardless?
• “You Can’t Spell Appeasement Without App.” After months of negotiations—during which it has held off on enforcing a statutorily mandated ban—the Trump administration has announced that it has reached a deal with China regarding the disposition of the social media platform TikTok and its operation in the United States. But the public details of the deal have been few and far between, and much more remains to be worked out. How close to a deal are the parties in actuality? And does it address the national security concerns motivating Congress’s ban in the first place?
• “Playing with White House Money.” The Trump administration has been rocked by two major corruption-related stories in the past week. First, the Justice Department is reported to have closed an investigation into White House immigration czar Tom Homan, who reportedly accepted $50,000 from undercover FBI agents prior to joining the administration on the understanding that he would help the donors gain access to the incoming Trump administration. And second, new details suggest that the recent deal to permit chip sales to the UAE were tied up in a variety of major cryptocurrency deals that enriched both the Trump Organization and others in the Trump administration—only the latest in a long history of suspect cryptocurrency transactions by Trump-related businesses. How big a problem are these transactions? And what do they tell us about the state of corruption on the second Trump administration?

In object lessons, Eric marked the Jewish New Year with a novel recommendation: “To Rise Again at a Decent Hour,” by Joshua Ferris, a midlife-crisis tale woven through Judaism, baseball, and dentistry—two subjects close to his heart, and one that isn’t. Scott, meanwhile, is back on the D.C. concert circuit and wants you to join him at Union Stage on October 14 to see Katie Pruitt, whose rock-infused Americana sound he thinks deserves a bigger audience. Kate rounded things out with a little blue hippo—specifically the souvenir version of the famous Egyptian figurine better known as “William,” a reminder of a past mother-daughter trip to Paris that involved butchering French while scouring the Louvre.

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Alan Rozenshtein, Lawfare Senior Editor and Research Director; Renée DiResta, Lawfare Contributing Editor; and Jess Miers, visiting assistant professor of Law at the University of Akron School of Law, discuss the distinct risks that generative AI systems pose to children, particularly in relation to mental health.

They explore the balance between the benefits and harms of AI, emphasizing the importance of media literacy and parental guidance. They also examine recent developments in AI safety measures and ongoing legal implications, highlighting the evolving landscape of AI regulation and liability.

Find Scaling Laws on the Lawfare website, and subscribe to never miss an episode.

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Loren Voss, Public Service Fellow at Lawfare, sits down with Dan Byman, Lawfare Foreign Policy Editor and the Director of the Warfare, Irregular Threats, and Terrorism Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies; Ryan Berg, Director of the Americas Program and Head of the Future of Venezuela Initiative also at CSIS; and Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson. They talk about the new United States approach to drug smuggling, the lethal strikes against drug smuggling boats, and the ongoing counterdrug efforts in Mexico.

Anderson applies international law to the facts as known on the military strikes on drug smuggling boats, highlighting the difficulties of treating drug smuggling as a “use of force” and a transnational criminal organization as a non-state armed group. Byman and Berg discuss the importance of the host government in dealing with terrorist or criminal threats, but are skeptical that the counterterrorism framing will be effective without also addressing the demand for drugs within the United States. The group ends with a discussion on how current strategies and legal analysis could be applied to other geographies or criminal groups. 

Mentioned in this episode:

• “Deploying U.S. Vessels to the Caribbean Is a Show of Force,” by Ryan Berg and Eric Farnsworth

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In this episode, Lawfare’s Ukraine Fellow Anastasiia Lapatina sits down with Minna Ålander, an associate fellow at Chatham House Europe Program, and Mykhailo Soldatenko, a scholar of international law and a doctoral candidate at Harvard Law School, to discuss Russia’s recent air incursions into Poland and Estonia, and whether NATO’s response to it has been proportional.

For more, read a report about Russian hybrid warfare co-authored by Minna Ålander.

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In a live conversation on YouTube, Lawfare Editor in Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower, Eric Columbus, and Roger Parloff to discuss Kash Patel’s testimony in front of Congress, a preliminary injunction preventing the Trump administration from deporting some Guatemalan children, updates in Fed. Governor Lisa Cook’s challenge to President Trump’s attempt to remove her, and so much more.

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From September 18, 2024: Jane Bambauer, Professor at Levin College of Law; Ramya Krishnan, Senior Staff Attorney at the Knight First Amendment Institute and a lecturer in law at Columbia Law School; Alan Rozenshtein, Associate Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota Law School and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, join Kevin Frazier, Assistant Professor at St. Thomas University College of Law and a Tarbell Fellow at Lawfare, to break down the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals’ hearing in TikTok v. Garland, in which a panel of judges assessed the constitutionality of the TikTok bill.

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From September 12, 2024: Without new congressional authorization for its post-Oct. 7 operations in the Middle East, the Biden administration has sought to legally justify its military activities in the region based on the president’s constitutional authority and the application of existing statutory authorities to operations against new adversaries. These executive branch arguments are the outgrowth of similar arguments presidential administrations have made over the last few decades, largely related to the requirements in the War Powers Resolution. 

The International Crisis Group recently analyzed these arguments and related issues in a new report, “Bending the Guardrails: U.S. War Powers after 7 October.” Tyler McBrien and Matt Gluck of Lawfare spoke with Brian Finucane, a senior adviser for the U.S. Program at the International Crisis Group and an author of the report, and Matthew Waxman, a professor at Columbia Law School, about the Crisis Group’s report. They discussed the history relevant to the current war powers moment, how the Biden administration has continued to justify its operations without new legislative authority, and the possibility of war powers legal reform moving forward.

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On today's Scaling Laws episode, Lawfare Senior Editor and Research Director Alan Rozenshtein sits down with Pam Samuelson, the Richard M. Sherman Distinguished Professor of Law at the University of California, Berkeley, School of Law, to discuss the rapidly evolving legal landscape at the intersection of generative AI and copyright law. They dive into the recent district court rulings in lawsuits brought by authors against AI companies, including Bartz v. Anthropic and Kadrey v. Meta. They explore how different courts are treating the core questions of whether training AI models on copyrighted data is a transformative fair use and whether AI outputs create a “market dilution” effect that harms creators. They also touch on other key cases to watch and the role of the U.S. Copyright Office in shaping the debate.

Mentioned in this episode:

• "How to Think About Remedies in the Generative AI Copyright Cases," by Pam Samuelson in Lawfare
• Andy Warhol Foundation for the Visual Arts, Inc. v. Goldsmith
• Bartz v. Anthropic
• Kadrey v. Meta Platforms
• Thomson Reuters Enterprise Centre GmbH v. Ross Intelligence Inc.
• U.S. Copyright Office, Copyright and Artificial Intelligence, Part 3: Generative AI Training

Find Scaling Laws on the Lawfare website, and subscribe to never miss an episode.

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On today’s episode, Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien sits down with with Maia Woluchem, the Director of Data & Society’s Trustworthy Infrastructures program, along with one of the program’s researchers, Livia Garofalo, and Joan Mukogosi, an affiliate with the program and a PhD candidate at the London School of Economics. They discuss their recent research trips across Pennsylvania, where they learned about the state’s industrial histories and futures, as well as the immediate and potential future impacts of the nascent AI data center industry.

Read more on the work of Data & Society’s Trustworthy Infrastructures program here: 

• “Digital Infrastructures, Material Consequences: A Road Trip Through Pennsylvania’s Industrial Histories and Technological Futures”
• “In Pennsylvania, a Nuclear Revival for an Uncertain AI Future”
• “Data Centers Aren’t the Future of American Prosperity”

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For this week's very special episode on Rational Security's 10th anniversary, Scott sat down with a slew of co-hosts emeritus, each of whom brought their own topic to discuss.

• Shane Harris flagged the connections between online radicalization and the young men behind many recent public acts of gun violence, including the alleged perpetrator of the Charlie Kirk killing;
• Benjamin Wittes insisted we are STILL not talking enough about Russian drone incursions and other forms of gray zone warfare in Eastern Europe;
• Quinta Jurecic brought some statistics about the success (or not) of the Trump administration's federalization of law enforcement in D.C. (and elsewhere) that are worth contemplating; and
• Alan Rozenshtein asked how it can still be true that no one but him seems to care about the Trump administration blatantly disregarding the TikTok ban.

In object lessons, Shane is basking in the glory of HBO’s “Somebody Somewhere”—partly because his buddy Jeff Hiller just won an Emmy for his role in it. Ben praises Adam Boehler—and even Donald Trump—for helping secure Elizabeth Tsurkov’s release. Alan is definitely not using this opportunity to use Pacific Rim for his object lesson—really—instead recommending fantasy mystery “The Tainted Cup,” by Robert Jackson Bennett. Scott takes us into orbit with Samantha Harvey’s “Orbital,” a lyrical meditation on life and reflection in space. And Quinta dives into the future with “Empire of AI,” by Karen Hao, a deeply reported look at OpenAI and its role in shaping the technology’s trajectory

Last call to help us celebrate Lawfare’s 15th anniversary! Get your tickets now to join us this Friday, 9/19, to hear from some of your favorite Lawfare people past and present, take a look back on the key moments that have shaped our first 15 years, and get a sneak peek into what’s coming next.

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For today's episode, Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sits down with Dan Byman, Senior Fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies; Joel Braunold, Managing Director of the S. Daniel Abraham Center for Middle East Peace; and Natan Sachs, Senior Fellow at the Middle East Institute, to discuss several recent developments in the Israel-Hamas conflict and the broader region.

Together, they discuss Israel's latest offensive in Gaza, its decision to launch airstrikes against Hamas's leadership in Qatar, and Benjamin Netanyahu's recent meeting with Secretary of State Marco Rubio—and what it all says about his (and Donald Trump's) vision for a new regional order.

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Lee Gelernt, Deputy Director of the ACLU's Immigrants' Rights Project, speaks to Senior Editor Roger Parloff about the cases he has led challenging the validity of Pres. Trump's Alien Enemies Act Proclamation.

They discuss the ACLU's recent victory in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit and the status of the group's original case, in Washington, D.C., including its attempt to inquire into whether Executive Branch officials defied court orders. 

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In a live conversation on YouTube, Lawfare Editor in Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editors Scott Anderson, Anna Bower, Eric Columbus, and Roger Parloff and Lawfare Public Service Fellow Michael Feinberg to discuss the Supreme Court staying a lower court order that prevented the firing of Rebecca Slaughter as FTC Commissioner, a federal appeals court upholding E. Jean Carroll’s judgement, Fed. Governor Lisa Cook’s lawsuit challenging President Trump’s attempt to fire her, the politicization of the FBI and its impact on investigations like the search for Charlie Kirk’s shooter, and more.You can find information on legal challenges to Trump administration actions here. And check out Lawfare’s new homepage on the litigation, new Bluesky account, and new WITOAD merch.

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From June 3, 2024: Rachel Rizzo, a nonresident senior fellow at the Atlantic Council’s Europe Center, joins Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien to talk about last month’s NATO Youth Summit. Building off of her chapter “NATO, Public Opinion, and the Next Generation: Remaining Relevant, Remaining Strong,” in the 2021 book, “NATO 2030: Towards a New Strategic Concept and Beyond,” Rizzo discusses what NATO thinks of Gen Z and Millennials, the many efforts the Alliance is making to pitch to them its relevance and purpose, and the ways in which NATO could better integrate youth voices into discussions about the Alliance’s future. She also explains how and why Gen Z and Millennial views on NATO, foreign policy, and America’s changing role in the world differ from older generations. And yes, they even discuss Taylor Swift and Olivia Rodrigo.

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From September 27, 2022: In just under a week, on October 2, Brazil will hold the first round of its general election, which will determine the country's next president. To talk through all things Brazilian politics, Lawfare managing editor Tyler McBrien sat down with Brian Winter, editor-in-chief of Americas Quarterly and a journalist with over a decade of experience living and reporting across Latin America. They discussed the leading candidates, Jair Bolsonaro and Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, the potential election crisis, and what's at stake as Brazilians head to the polls on Sunday.

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Steven Adler, former OpenAI safety researcher, author of Clear-Eyed AI on Substack, and independent AGI-readiness researcher, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and Senior Fellow at Lawfare, to assess the current state of AI testing and evaluations. The two walk through Steven’s views on industry efforts to improve model testing and what he thinks regulators ought to know and do when it comes to preventing AI harms.

Thanks to Leo Wu for research assistance!

Find Scaling Laws on the Lawfare website, and subscribe to never miss an episode.

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This week, Scott sat down with his Lawfare colleagues Benjamin Wittes and Natalie Orpett, and Professor of Law at Cardozo Law School Rebecca Ingber, to talk through the week’s big national security news, including:

• “Uninvited Aerial Vehicles.” The Polish government is claiming that nineteen armed Russian UAVs penetrated its airspace last night. While Russians are suggesting no attack was intended, Poland has invoked Article IV of the NATO Treaty and worked with allied NATO aircraft to shoot the drones down. What might be happening here? And does it mean we’re on our way to World War III as some are suggesting?
• “Bibi is a Killer Negotiator. No, Wait—Switch That.” Within days of the Trump administration tabling another ceasefire proposal—and, by some accounts, making progress in pressuring Hamas to accept it—Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu authorized a set of missile strikes that killed the leaders of Hamas’s political wing in nearby Qatar. It’s the first such move in a Gulf country, many of which have moved towards normalization with Israel through the Trump-backed Abraham Accords. What explains Israel’s actions? And what do they portend for the conflict in Gaza and the region as a whole?
• “Cruise Control.” A week has passed since the Trump administration took the controversial step of targeting a boat alleged to be smuggling narcotics at the direction of the Venezuelan criminal organization Tren de Aragua with lethal force. The Trump administration hasn’t repeated the move, but it’s said it intends to. And U.S. military assets—including strategic assets whose use in a counter-narcotics military campaign is far from clear—have continued to build up in the region, leading some to believe that a broader campaign against Venezuela itself may yet be in the offing. How likely is a broader campaign? And could its implications be, legally and politically? 

In Object Lessons, Ben is cheering on a cadre of former FBI agents suing Kash Patel over their firings, and in the process, sings the praises of an accidental hero—the “Drizz.” Natalie, meanwhile, gets très littéraire with “The Elegance of the Hedgehog,” by Muriel Barbery—a book so French that almost nothing happens. Scott rang in his 8th wedding anniversary the traditional way: getting drunk in the basement and falling in love all over again—with The Paper. And Bec wonders just how much coin it’s going to take to change the Department of Defense to the Department of War.

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Twenty-four years ago today, two planes crashed into the World Trade Center in New York, another hit the Pentagon, and another went down in a field in Pennsylvania. It was the worst terrorist attack on U.S. soil in American history. But the men the United States accuses of perpetrating the attacks haven't been held accountable. In fact, they haven't even gone to trial.

For today's podcast, Executive Editor Natalie Orpett talks with John Ryan, a journalist at Lawdragon and author of the book, “America's Trial: Torture and the 9/11 Case on Guantanamo Bay,” to help explain why. They talk about John's 10 years covering the 9/11 case, why it's so hard to report from Guantanamo, why the case has been bogged down in pretrial proceedings for over a decade, and what torture has to do with it all. 

Note: Orpett referred to Lawfare's recent coverage of the 9/11 case, including pieces about Secretary Austin's withdrawal, the military commission's ruling upholding the pleas, the D.C. Circuit's reversal, and the recent suppression ruling in the Ammar al Baluchi case.

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For today’s episode, Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson and Contributing Editor Brandon Van Grack sit down with Adam Chan, the first National Security Counsel at the Federal Communications Commission (FCC), to discuss the FCC’s increasingly important role in U.S. national security policy.

Together they discuss the origins of the FCC’s role in national security, how and why it has grown in an era of major power competition, and several of the initiatives they currently have underway. 

Since recording, the FCC has taken further action on one such issue: the problem of “bad labs.” You can read their press release here.

This episode is part of the special “The Regulators” podcast series, which features conversations with senior officials working at the intersection of national security and the economy.

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For today’s episode, Lawfare Contributing Editor Renée DiResta interviews Joan Barata, Visiting Professor at the Catholic University of Porto; Laís Martins, journalist at The Intercept Brazil and Fellow at Tech Policy Press; and James Görgen, adviser to Brazil’s Ministry of Development, Industry, Trade, and Services, to discuss the dramatic intersection of tech policy and geopolitical pressure unfolding in Brazil. They discuss the trial of former President Jair Bolsonaro for his role in the January 8 insurrection, the legal battles surrounding social media regulation and platform liability, the influence of Supreme Court Justice Alexandre de Moraes, and the controversy sparked by U.S. sanctions and tariffs. Together, they examine whether the intersection of tech and geopolitics in Brazil is an outlier—or a preview of what’s coming for democracies worldwide.

Read more on this topic from this episode’s guests:

• “Trump’s Attack on Brazil’s Sovereignty May Backfire on US Tech Firms,” by Laís Martins
• “Trump’s New Brazil Tariffs Aren’t About Trade, and They’re Not About Free Speech,” by Laís Martins
• “Brazil’s Supreme Court Overturns Platform Liability Rules—Now Comes the Challenge of What’s Next,” by Laís Martins
• "Brazil Has a Bridge to Defending the Internet," by James Görgen
• "O Vale do Silício contra a parede?" by James Görgen
• "O sequestro da soberania digital," by James Görgen
• "Felca, Trump e fatiamentos digitais," by James Görgen
• “Regulating Online Platforms Beyond the Marco Civil in Brazil: The Controversial ‘Fake News Bill,’”by Joan Barata
• “JOTA: Dilemmas of Platform Regulation in Brazil,” by Joan Barata

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In a live conversation on YouTube, Lawfare Editor in Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editors Roger Parloff and Scott Anderson, Lawfare Public Service Fellow Loren Voss, and the Brennan Center's Katherine Yon Ebright to discuss the ongoing activation of National Guard in the District of Columbia, the Trump Administration's lethal strike in the Caribbean, and Harvard University's win over its funding fight in federal court. You can find information on legal challenges to Trump administration actions here. And check out Lawfare’s new homepage on the litigation, new Bluesky account, and new WITOAD merch.

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From March 28, 2024: One of the gravest threats to U.S. national security today—and also one of the newest—is the risk of cyberattacks. They come in many forms, and they can incapacitate companies, institutions, and even the government. 

To better understand these threats—and how the government is responding to them­—Lawfare Executive Editor Natalie Orpett and Lawfare Contributing Editor Brandon Van Grack sat down with Brett Leatherman, Deputy Assistant Director for Cyber Operations at the FBI. They discussed the FBI's recent operations, threats from both state actors and criminal gangs, and the role of the private sector in U.S. cybersecurity.

This is the latest episode in our special series, “The Regulators,” co-sponsored with Morrison Foerster, in which we talk with senior government officials working at the front lines of U.S. national security policy.

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From August 22, 2024: Anastasiia Lapatina is a Kyiv-based Ukraine Fellow at Lawfare. Leopoldo Lopez is a Venezuelan opposition leader living in exile in Madrid, after escaping prison for leading protests against Nicolás Maduro in 2014. Lapatina and Lopez discuss the results of Venezuela’s recent presidential election, ties between Venezuela’s autocrat Nicolás Maduro and other dictatorships, and the path forward for Venezuela after the rigged election.

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In a live conversation on Sept. 4, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson and Professor of Law at Cardozo Law School Rebecca Ingber to discuss the U.S. strike on an alleged “drug boat” traveling from Venezuela, the president’s authority to use lethal force outside of war, and more.

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Anu Bradford, Professor at Columbia Law School, and Kate Klonick, Senior Editor at Lawfare and Associate Professor at St. John's University School of Law, join Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to assess the ongoing, contrasting, and, at times, conflicting regulatory approaches to Big Tech being pursued by the EU and U.S. The trio start with an assessment of the EU’s use of the Brussels Effect, coined by Anu, to shape AI development. Next, they explore the U.S.’s increasingly interventionist industrial policy with respect to key sectors, especially tech.

Read more:

• Anu’s op-ed in The New York Times
• "The Impact of Regulation on Innovation," by Philippe Aghion, Antonin Bergeaud, and John Van Reenen
• Draghi Report on the Future of European Competitiveness

Find Scaling Laws on the Lawfare website, and subscribe to never miss an episode.

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For today's episode, Lawfare Foreign Policy Editor Daniel Byman interviews Mark Cancian, a Senior Adviser with the Center for Strategic and International Studies, to assess the impact and implications of a Chinese blockade of Taiwan. Cancian discusses why China might choose blockade over an outright invasion, how the blockade might affect Taiwan, the risks of escalation, and what the United States and Taiwan must do to make a blockade less likely and less risky. 

For more, take a look at “Lights Out? Wargaming a Chinese Blockade of Taiwan,” a recent CSIS report by Mark F. Cancian, Matthew F. Cancian, and Eric Heginbotham.

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This week, Scott sat down with his Lawfare colleagues Anna Bower, Tyler McBrien, and Peter Harrell to talk through the week’s big national security news stories, including:

• “Faginomics.” With the recent announcement that the U.S. government would be taking a 10% stake in the company Intel, the Trump administration has ushered in a new era of state-guided industrial policy, fueled by concerns of major power competition, particularly around the race to AI. How does this new policy intersect with its other novel economic priorities, such as the imposition of tariffs? And how legally viable is it, given present (and potentially future) legal challenges?
• “Ménage à Trois.” On the margins of the recent meeting of the China- and Russia-led Shanghai Cooperation Organisation, Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi made a point of warmly (and very publicly) embracing Russian President Vladimir Putin and Chinese President Xi Jinping—a move many have taken as a clear shot across the bow at the Trump administration, which has been in heated economic negotiations with India over tariffs and trade relations. What does this exchange say about the Trump administration’s handling of the U.S. relationship with India—and other key U.S. relationships?
• “Midnight Planes Going Nowhere.” In an emergency hearing over the holiday weekend, federal judge Sparkle Sooknanan stopped the Trump administration from deporting hundreds of unaccompanied Guatemalan minor migrants to their home country—a move that the government of Guatemala has now claimed that it invited. What should we make of this move by the Trump administration? And how does it fit within its broader immigration crackdown?

In object lessons, Tyler biked to City Island, NY, discovering a charming little enclave with great food, shops, and beaches. Sticking with the New York theme, Anna recommends “John Proctor is the Villain,” a play by a writer from her Georgia hometown that’s so good it’s making women cry. Scott, meanwhile, left New York behind to live his best Neapolitan life with a new backyard pizza oven that can achieve the appropriate temp for a puffy crust. And Peter’s been reading “When the Clock Broke,” a reminder that the 1990s may have been the dress rehearsal for our current political dumpster fire, all the while keeping an eye on challenges to Trump v. Casa.

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In a live conversation on Sept. 2, Lawfare Editor in Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editors Scott R. Anderson, Anna Bower, and Lawfare Public Service Fellow Loren Voss to discuss Sunday’s emergency hearing in L.G.M.L. et al. v. Kristi Noem—in which Judge Sparkle Sooknanan blocked the Trump administration’s plans to send unaccompanied migrant children to Guatemala—Judge Charles Breyer’s ruling in Newsom v. Trump which found that President Trump’s use of the National Guard and U.S. Marines in Los Angeles violated the Posse Comitatus Act, and the Federal Circuit Court of Appeals ruling striking down Trump’s tariffs on International Emergency Economic Powers Act grounds.

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On today’s episode, Molly Reynolds, Contributing Editor at Lawfare and Senior Fellow at Brookings, sits down with Zach Price, Associate Professor of Law at UC Law San Francisco, and Phil Wallach, Senior Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, to discuss pocket rescissions as an approach to cancelling funds previously approved by Congress. They cover whether the practice is legal, how it threatens Congress’s institutional power, and how they fit in with broader efforts by the Trump administration.

For more, take a look at the following pieces on Lawfare:

• “Past Pocket Rescissions Are Not Precedents for Power Vought Claims,” by Cerin Lindgrensavage and William Ford
• “Lawfare Daily: The President, Congress, and the Power of the Purse,” with Molly Reynolds, Matt Lawrence, Eloise Pasachoff, and Zachary Price
• “Pocket Rescissions: Legal Controversy and Political Meaning,” by Philip Wallach

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute.

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In a live conversation on YouTube, Lawfare Editor in Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower and Scott Anderson, Lawfare contributor James Pearce, Lawfare Public Service Fellow Loren Voss, and The Atlantic staff writer Quinta Jurecic to discuss the legality of the Trump administration’s cancellation of $4.9 billion in foreign aid funding using a “pocket rescission,” how that impacts ongoing litigation surrounding foreign aid grant cancellations, the expanding role of the Pentagon in domestic law enforcement in D.C. and across the country, Fed. Governor Lisa Cook’s lawsuit challenging President Trump’s attempt to remove her from the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve, and more.You can find information on legal challenges to Trump administration actions here. And check out Lawfare’s new homepage on the litigation, new Bluesky account, and new WITOAD merch.

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From August 23, 2024: Richard Albert, William Stamps Farish Professor in Law, Professor of Government, and Director of Constitutional Studies at the University of Texas at Austin, joins Kevin Frazier, Assistant Professor at St. Thomas University College of Law and a Tarbell Fellow at Lawfare, to conduct a comparative analysis of what helps constitutions withstand political pressures. Richard’s extensive study of different means to amend constitutions shapes their conversation about whether the U.S. Constitution has become too rigid.

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From August 28, 2024: On today’s episode, Vanda Felbab-Brown, Director of the Initiative on Nonstate Armed Actors, Co-Director of the Africa Security Initiative, and Senior Fellow in Foreign Policy at the Brookings Institution joins Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien to help make sense of the recent skirmishes in northern Mali between the junta, separatist groups, Islamists, and Russian mercenaries. 

They discuss what the recent ambush in Mali portends for Russian and Russian-aligned mercenaries' activities in Africa and look back at how Moscow has restructured and reframed the Wagner Group in the year since the death of its former head, Yevgeny Prigozhin.

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Peter E. Harrell, Adjunct Senior Fellow at the Center for a New American Security, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to examine the White House’s announcement that it will take a 10% share of Intel. They dive into the policy rationale for the stake as well as its legality. Peter and Kevin also explore whether this is just the start of such deals given that President Trump recently declared that “there will be more transactions, if not in this industry then other industries.”

Find Scaling Laws on the Lawfare website, and subscribe to never miss an episode.

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On today’s episode, Lawfare’s Ukraine Fellow Anastasiia Lapatina sits down with Eric Ciaramella, a Senior Fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and Lawfare Contributing Editor, to discuss the history of American security commitments abroad and how it can help inform the debate around security guarantees for Ukraine.

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This week, Scott sat down with old and new Lawfare colleagues—Benjamin Wittes, Renée DiResta, and Michael Feinberg—to talk through the week’s big national security news stories, including:

• “An Old Fashioned Anti Raid.” Former Trump National Security Advisor (turned Trump critic) John Bolton got a rude awakening this past week when the FBI conducted a raid at his home, reportedly on the grounds that he is believed to have retained classified information from his time in office. It’s the latest in a recent spate of (well publicized) investigations targeting Trump’s critics and enemies, including a series of mortgage fraud investigations into Federal Reserve governor Lisa Cook (who Trump now purports to have removed for cause), New York Attorney General Letitia James (which coincided with a photo shoot that Justice Department official Ed Martin did, uninvited, outside of her home), and Senator Adam Schiff. How big a threat are such investigations to Trump’s enemies? And what will their long-term implications be for the Justice Department?
• “Uncleared and Present Danger.” Last week, Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard pulled security clearances from 37 current and former intelligence officials on the purported grounds that they had “abused the public trust by politicizing and manipulating intelligence, leaking classified intelligence without authorization, and/or committing intentional egregious violations of tradecraft standards.” Those affected range from current senior intelligence officials to former officials who have been out of government for years to current senior congressional staffers. What are the consequences likely to be of Gabbard’s actions and what does it show about the Trump administration’s approach to national security agencies?
• “Blue Sky Thinking.” In response to a state law mandating age verification for anyone seeking to use social media platforms, Bluesky has opted to shut down its services in the state of Mississippi. What does this sort of response tell us about the trajectory of state and federal regulations, and what the impact might ultimately be on the internet?

In Object Lessons, Ben is letting The Algorithm light his way—literally—with solar-powered sunflower lights. Renée, not to be outdone, also bows before our algorithmic overlord and wants you to stream Red Bull’s YouTube dance battles. Scott is using his green thumb to plant the seeds of some versatile green fruit. And Michael is going less horticultural, more horrifying, by planting horror movie props around his house—because nothing says “I love you” like a severed head in the fridge.

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Matthew Ford, Associate Professor at Swedish Defence University and author of “War in the Smartphone Age: Conflict, Connectivity, and the Crises at Our Fingertips,” joins Lawfare’s Justin Sherman to discuss the role of smartphones and related technologies in war, how social media contributes to a collapse of context in the war content we see online, and how smartphones and other devices are reshaping open-source intelligence (OSINT) and open-source investigations (OSINV) vis-a-vis conflicts and violence from Syria to Ethiopia to Ukraine. They also discuss the tech stack in war, how the military “kill chain” is evolving with ever-greater digital connectivity, the current state and future of “participatory warfare,” and how we can become better consumers—and sharers—of war-related content online.

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Lawfare Contributor Mykhailo Soldatenko sits down with Michael O'Hanlon, Director of Foreign Policy Research and Senior Fellow at the Brookings Institution, and Andriy Zagorodnyuk, Chairman of the Centre for Defence Strategies in Kyiv, a former Ukrainian Defence Minister, and a nonresident scholar at Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, to discuss ways of defending Ukraine from present and future Russian attacks in the absence of NATO membership.

Please see the following policy proposals relevant to the discussion: 

• “Defending Ukraine in the Absence of NATO Security Guarantees,” by Paul B. Stares and Michael O'Hanlon
• “Ukraine's New Theory of Victory Should be Strategic Neutralization,” by Andriy Zagorodnyuk
• “Exploring Ukraine’s Armed Neutrality or Nonalignment: Legal and Policy Considerations,” by Mykhailo Soldatenko

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In a live conversation on YouTube, Lawfare Editor in Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower, and Roger Parloff, and Lawfare contributor James Pearce to discuss the FBI’s execution of a search warrant at John Bolton’s house, a federal judge ruling that Alina Habba was unlawfully serving as a U.S. attorney for New Jersey, Kilmar Abrego Garcia’s motion to dismiss his indictment for selective prosecution and his return to Maryland, a decision voiding the fine in the civil fraud case against President Trump, the Supreme Court’s ruling in NIH v. APHA, and more.You can find information on legal challenges to Trump administration actions here. And check out Lawfare’s new homepage on the litigation, new Bluesky account, and new WITOAD merch.

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From August 1, 2024: Anastasiia Lapatina is a Kyiv-based Ukraine Fellow at Lawfare. Marcel Plichta is a Fellow at the Centre for Global Law and Governance at the University of St. Andrews, and a former analyst at the U.S. Department of Defense who currently works as an instructor at the Grey Dynamics Intelligence School. 

For this episode, Lapatina sat down with Plichta to discuss Ukraine’s ongoing drone campaign against Russia, Ukraine’s choice of targets deep inside Russian territory, and the future of drone warfare around the world.

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From May 3, 2024: Over the past several years, governors around the country from both political parties have used their respective National Guards for an increasingly unconventional array of domestic missions, ranging from teaching in public schools to regulating immigration at the southern border. To discuss how this trend may impact the National Guard—and our broader democracy, particularly in this pivotal election year—Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson recently sat down with a panel of senior former National Guard and Defense Department officials, including: General Craig McKinley, General Joseph Lengyel, Brigadier General Allyson Solomon, Major General Daryl Bohac, and former Assistant Secretary of Defense Dr. Paul Stockton. 

A video recording of the panel is available at https://www.brookings.edu/events/domestic-deployment-of-the-national-guard/. 

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For today's episode, Lawfare Senior Editor and General Counsel Scott R. Anderson sits down with Lawfare Contributing Editor and Indiana University Maurer School of Law professor Asaf Lubin and Hebrew University of Jerusalem professor Deborah Housen-Couriel to talk over the European Court of Human Rights' recent decision in Ukraine and the Netherlands v. Russia.

Together, they discuss how the opinion lays new ground in discussing digital rights in wartime, what issues still need to be developed further, and what it all might mean for warfare in the future, both good and bad.

For more, read Asaf and Deb’s latest piece on Lawfare, “Digital Rights in Armed Conflict and the Ukraine v. Russia Decision.”

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Alan Rozenshtein, Research Director at Lawfare, sits down with Sam Winter-Levy, a Fellow in the Technology and International Affairs Program at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace; Janet Egan, a Senior Fellow with the Technology and National Security Program at the Center for a New American Security; and Peter Harrell, a Nonresident Fellow at Carnegie and a former Senior Director for International Economics at the White House National Security Council under President Joe Biden.

They discuss the Trump administration’s recent decision to allow U.S. companies Nvidia and AMD to export a range of advanced AI semiconductors to China in exchange for a 15% payment to the U.S. government. They talk about the history of the export control regime targeting China’s access to AI chips, the strategic risks of allowing China to acquire powerful chips like the Nvidia H20, and the potential harm to the international coalition that has worked to restrict China’s access to this technology. They also debate the statutory and constitutional legality of the deal, which appears to function as an export tax, a practice explicitly prohibited by the Constitution.

Mentioned in this episode:

• The Financial Times article breaking the news about the Nvidia deal
• The Trump Administration’s AI Action Plan

Find Scaling Laws on the Lawfare website, and subscribe to never miss an episode.

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