The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Stephen Markley’s novel, “The Deluge,” is an ambitious and terrifyingly realistic look at our collective future on a warming planet. He joins Sean to talk about the 10-year process of writing the book, the current political struggle over climate action, and how we can confront and mitigate the worst effects of climate change.  

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Stephen Markley. His book is “The Deluge.”

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Jon Ehrens 
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd

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It’s been 50 years since Ernest Becker’s breakthrough book The Denial of Death was first published, and its thesis has become more relevant than ever. Filmmaker Jef Sewell is the co-creator of a new documentary about Becker called All Illusions Must Be Broken. It features never-before-heard audio of the enigmatic anthropologist and puts his theories in a modern context. 

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Jef Sewell. Find out more about the film at www.twobirdsfilm.com 

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Jon Ehrens 
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd

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Silicon Valley is in the middle of an AI frenzy, and many of its leaders believe this technology could eventually result in human extinction. Tyler Austin Harper breaks down the most outlandish predictions, some of the more plausible problems AI poses, and how this moment reminds him of earlier extinction panics.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Tyler Austin Harper (@Tyler_A_Harper). Read his piece in the New York Times here. 

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• Producer: Jon Ehrens 
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd

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America solidified its dominant posture in the international order following World War II and largely held that position for the following half-century. But as problems have accumulated at home and abroad, Americans are reconsidering their country’s role in the world, and so are its leaders. Alex Ward, author of The Internationalists: The Fight to Restore American Foreign Policy After Trump, joins us. 

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Alex Ward (@alexbward). His book is The Internationalists: The Fight to Restore American Foreign Policy After Trump.

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• Engineer: Patrick Boyd

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Sean Illing talks with economic historian Brad DeLong about his new book Slouching Towards Utopia. In it, DeLong claims that the "long twentieth century" was the most consequential period in human history, during which the institutions of rapid technological growth and globalization were created, setting humanity on a path towards improving life, defeating scarcity, and enabling real freedom. But... this ran into some problems. Sean and Brad talk about the power of markets, how the New Deal led to something approaching real social democracy, and why the Great Recession of 2008 and its aftermath signified the end of this momentous era.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: J. Bradford DeLong (@delong), author; professor of economics, U.C. Berkeley

References: 

• Slouching Towards Utopia: An Economic History of the Twentieth Century by J. Bradford DeLong (Basic; 2022)
• The Road to Serfdom by Friedrich von Hayek (1944)
• The Great Transformation by Karl Polanyi (1944)
• Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy by Joseph Schumpeter (1942)
• "A Short History of Enclosure in Britain" by Simon Fairlie (This Land Magazine; 2009)
• "China's Great Leap Forward" by Clayton D. Brown (Association for Asian Studies; 2012)
• What Is Property? by Pierre-Joseph Proudhon (1840)
• The Rise and Fall of the Neoliberal Order by Gary Gerstle (Oxford University Press; 2022)
• Apple's "1984" ad (YouTube)
• The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money by John Maynard Keynes (1936)
• "The spectacular ongoing implosion of crypto's biggest star, explained" by Emily Stewart (Vox; Nov. 18)
• "Did Greenspan Add to Subprime Woes? Gramlich Says Ex-Colleague Blocked Crackdown" by Greg Ip (Wall Street Journal; June 9, 2007)
• "Families across the country are tightening their belts and making tough decisions. The federal government should do the same," from President Obama's 2010 State of the Union Address (Jan. 27, 2010)
• "The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte" by Karl Marx (1852)
• Why We're Polarized by Ezra Klein (Simon & Schuster; 2020)
• The Paradox of Democracy: Free Speech, Open Media, and Perilous Persuasion by Zac Gershberg and Sean Illing (U. Chicago; 2022)

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Musician Laraaji joins Sean to talk about improvisation as meditation, the transcendent nature of laughter, and lessons from a long life in sound and spirit. 

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Laraaji. His music can be found at https://laraajimusic.bandcamp.com/

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Jon Ehrens 
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd

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Political philosopher Ingrid Robeyns believes that there should be a maximum amount of money and resources that one person can have. She tells Sean how much is too much and why limiting personal wealth benefits everyone, including the super rich. 

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Ingrid Robeyns. Her book is Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth.

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Jon Ehrens 

Engineer: Cristian Ayala

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For much of her life, author Maggie Jackson disliked uncertainty and thought of it as something to eradicate as quickly as possible. But when she began to explore the uncertain mind, she discovered new scientific findings showing that uncertainty is critical for astute problem-solving and creativity.  She joins Sean to talk about what she learned and how being unsure can lead to a better, more hopeful life.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Maggie Jackson. You can find her books and more at https://www.maggie-jackson.com/ 

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Jon Ehrens 
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd

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Americans have absorbed the “Protestant work ethic” — the idea that our value as human beings is determined by how hard we work and how much money we make. Elizabeth Anderson explains how this evolved, why it pervades everything, and why it sucks.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Elizabeth Anderson, professor of public philosophy at the University of Michigan. 

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• Producer: Jon Ehrens 
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd

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If you’ve felt that learning new information or developing a new skill seems harder as you get older, you are not wrong. Neuroscientist Gul Dolen has studied brain capability and joins us to talk about the times in human development when our brains are especially adept at learning and retaining new information, and how MDMA and other psychedelics can be used to induce these moments and unlock the brain’s potential.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Gul Dolen. Learn more about her work at www.dolenlab.org.

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• Producer: Jon Ehrens 
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd

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When we find ourselves in a dark place, what if we didn't "lighten things up"? Sean Illing talks with philosopher Mariana Alessandri, whose new book Night Vision offers a new way of understanding our dark moods and experiences like depression, pain, and grief. Alessandri describes the deep influence of what she calls the "light metaphor" — the belief that light is good and darkness is bad — and the destructive emotional cycles it has produced. They discuss the influence of Stoic philosophy, Aristotelian ethics, and contemporary self-help — and explore what new paradigms for emotional intelligence might entail. This episode was originally published on June 29th.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Mariana Alessandri (@mariana.alessandri), professor of philosophy, University of Texas Rio Grande Valley; author

References: 

• Night Vision: Seeing Ourselves through Dark Moods by Mariana Alessandri (Princeton; 2023)
• Plato's "allegory of the cave" from the Republic, VI (514a–520a)
• The Power of Positive Thinking by Norman Vincent Peale (1952)
• The Encheiridion (or "Handbook") of Epictetus (c. 50 – c. 125 AD)
• The Dialogues and letters of Seneca (c. 4 BC – 65 AD)
• The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius (121 – 180 AD)
• The Tusculan Disputations of Cicero (106 – 43 BC)
• Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics
• It's OK That You're Not OK by Megan Devine (Sounds True; 2017)
• Our Lord Don Quixote by Miguel de Unamuno (1914; tr. 1968)
• Borderlands/La Frontera: The New Mestiza by Gloria Anzaldúa (Aunt Lute; 1987)

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Jon Kabat-Zinn helped kick off the American mindfulness movement with his bestselling book Wherever You Go, There You Are. On its 30th anniversary, he joins Sean for a wide-ranging conversation about what it means to be mindful in the attention economy, why mindfulness has skyrocketed in popularity, and how to think about the commercialization of an ancient practice.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Jon Kabat-Zinn, mindfulness pioneer and author of Wherever You Go, There You Are. Learn more about his work at https://jonkabat-zinn.com and follow him at https://twitter.com/jonkabatzinn and https://www.facebook.com/kabatzinn

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Jon Ehrens 
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd

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Most people think anarchists want to live in a lawless society devoid of any structure or order. But anarchism is actually a serious political philosophy that’s more focused on egalitarianism than it is on chaos. Philosopher Sophie Scott-Brown is an anarchist in this tradition, and she makes the convincing case that anarchism is the only political philosophy poised to deal with the uncertainty of the modern world.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Sophie Scott-Brown research fellow at the University of St. Andrews and the Director of Gresham College in London, and the author of the book Colin Ward and the Art of Everyday Anarchy.

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• Producer: Jon Ehrens 
• Engineer: Brandon McFarland

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Constance Grady, a culture writer at Vox, is joined by Emily Wilson to discuss her bestselling translations of The Iliad and The Odyssey. They unpack the buzz surrounding them and the significance of The Iliad today. 

Host: Constance Grady, (@constancegrady), culture writer, Vox

Guest: Emily Wilson, classics professor and translator of The Iliad and The Odyssey

References: 

The Iliad by Homer, translated by Emily Wilson (W.W. Norton, 2023)

The Odyssey by Homer, translated by Emily Wilson (W.W. Norton, 2018) 

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This episode was made by: 

• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing is joined by John Gray, political philosopher and author of the new book, The New Leviathans: Thoughts After Liberalism. They discuss Thomas Hobbes and the origins of liberalism, the current state of democracy, and the very uncertain future of the global liberal order.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: John Gray, author and political philosopher

References: 

The New Leviathans: Thoughts After Liberalism by John Gray (Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2023)

Leviathan by Thomas Hobbes (1651)

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• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing speaks with Robert Sapolsky, a professor of biology and neurology at Stanford University and the author of a new book called Determined: A Science of Life Without Free Will. They discuss the concept of free will, whether it actually exists in the way we think it does, and what it means for society if free will is indeed an illusion.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Robert Sapolsky, author, Determined: A Science of Life Without Free Will

References: 

Determined: A Science of Life Without Free Will by Robert M. Sapolsky (Penguin Random House, 2023)

Behave by Robert M. Sapolsky (Penguin Random House, 2018)

“Robert Sapolsky Doesn’t Believe in Free Will. (But Feel Free to Disagree.)” by Hope Reese (New York Times, October 2023)

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This episode was made by: 

• Engineer: Rob Byers
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Zack Beauchamp, a Vox senior correspondent who writes about democracy and Israel, speaks with Shadi Hamid, a columnist at The Washington Post, research professor of Islamic studies at Fuller Seminary, and author of The Problem of Democracy: America, the Middle East, and the Rise and Fall of an Idea. They discuss the October 7 attack, the subsequent war in Gaza, what it means for Israelis and Palestinians, and how Jews and Muslims in the United States can find common ground amidst their communities’ grief.

This conversation was recorded on November 2, 2023.

Host:  Zack Beauchamp (@zackbeauchamp), senior correspondent at Vox 

Guest: Shadi Hamid, (@shadihamid), columnist and Editorial Board member at The Washington Post, research professor of Islamic studies at Fuller Seminary, and author of The Problem of Democracy: America, the Middle East, and the Rise and Fall of an Idea. 

References: 

“Reducing Hamas’s terrorism to a problem of ‘evil’ is a mistake” by Shadi Hamid (The Washington Post, Oct. 2023)

The Problem of Democracy: America, the Middle East, and the Rise and Fall of an Idea by Shadi Hamid (Oxford University Press, 2022)

“Everything you need to know about Israel-Palestine: A comprehensive guide to the basics of the world’s most controversial conflict” by Zack Beauchamp (Vox)

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Engineer: Rob Byers

Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing is joined by Matt Gutman, the chief national correspondent for ABC News, to talk about his new book, No Time to Panic: How I Curbed My Anxiety and Conquered a Lifetime of Panic Attacks. They discuss their personal experiences with panic, the evolutionary roots of it, and how Matt has gained control over his feelings of panic and anxiety.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Matt Gutman (@mattgutmanABC), author, No Time to Panic: How I Curbed My Anxiety and Conquered a Lifetime of Panic Attacks.

References: 

No Time to Panic: How I Curbed My Anxiety and Conquered a Lifetime of Panic Attacks by Matt Gutman (Penguin Random House, 2023)

“The brutal mirror: What the psychedelic drug ayahuasca showed me about my life” by Sean Illing (Vox, February 2018)

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This episode was made by: 

• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Guest host Alissa Wilkinson speaks with Walt Hickey about his new book, You Are What You Watch: How Movies and TV Affect Everything. They discuss how entertainment affects the physical and mental states of viewers — from blood coagulation during horror movie screenings to an increase in Dalmatian adoptions after 101 Dalmatians was released in theaters — and why our responses to what we watch are worth celebrating.

Host: Alissa Wilkinson (@alissamarie), senior culture writer, Vox

Guest: Walt Hickey, (@walterhickey) author, You Are What You Watch: How Movies and TV Affect Everything

References: 

You Are What You Watch: How Movies and TV Affect Everything by Walt Hickey (Workman Publishing Company, 2023)

“How to Use Math to Crush Your Friends at Monopoly Like You've Never Done Before” by Walt Hickey (Business Insider, Jun. 2013)

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This episode was made by: 

• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing speaks with one of his heroes: Werner Herzog. Herzog is a filmmaker, poet, and author of the new memoir Every Man for Himself and God Against All. They discuss "ecstatic truth," a term invented by Herzog to capture what he's really after in his work. Illing also asks him a range of big questions, such as why he is interested in Mars and whether he thinks humanity is destroying itself.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Werner Herzog, author, Every Man for Himself and God Against All

References: 

Every Man for Himself and God Against All by Werner Herzog (Penguin Random House, 2023) 

Of Walking in Ice by Werner Herzog

Last Whispers by Lena Herzog (2022)

“Werner Herzog Talks Virtual Reality” by Patrick House (The New Yorker, Jan. 2016)

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Katelyn Bogucki
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Michael Lewis joins Sean Illing to discuss his new book about Sam Bankman-Fried, Going Infinite: The Rise and Fall of a New Tycoon. They talk about the FTX crash, what Lewis learned while shadowing Bankman-Fried, and what SBF’s rise and fall says about us and our financial systems.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Michael Lewis, author, Going Infinite: The Rise and Fall of a New Tycoon

References: 

Going Infinite: The Rise and Fall of a New Tycoon by Michael Lewis (W.W. Norton & Company, 2023)

The Big Short: Inside the Doomsday Machine by Michael Lewis (W.W. Norton & Company, 2010)

The Blind Side: Evolution of a Game by Michael Lewis (W.W. Norton & Company, 2007)

Moneyball: The Art of Winning An Unfair Game by Michael Lewis (W.W. Norton & Company, 2004)

Liar’s Poker by Michael Lewis (W.W. Norton & Company, 1989)

“Sam Bankman-Fried tries to explain himself” by Kelsey Piper (Vox, Nov. 2022)

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• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing and David Brooks talk about Brooks’s recent essay, “How America Got Mean.” They discuss the country's moral history, how politics and culture have shifted our perception of connection and community, and what can be done to make things nicer.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: David Brooks (@nytdavidbrooks), author and op-ed columnist

References: 

• “How America Got Mean” by David Brooks (The Atlantic, August 2023)
• How to Know a Person by David Brooks (Penguin Random House, 2023)
• The Road to Character by David Brooks (Penguin Random House, 2016)
• The Social Animal by David Brooks (Penguin Random House, 2012)
• The Upswing: How America Came Together a Century Ago and How We Can Do It Again by Robert D. Putnam (Simon & Schuster, 2021)

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• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Every generation thinks they’re living through the strangest times, but is our generation right? Sean Illing speaks with writer and activist Naomi Klein about her new book, Doppelganger: A Trip Into the Mirror World. They discuss how a much different Naomi — her doppelganger — scrambled her professional life and led to an unexpected plunge into the ironies and absurdities of our digital world.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Naomi Klein (@NaomiAKlein), author of Doppelganger and the co-director of the Centre for Climate Justice

References: 

Doppelganger by Naomi Klein (Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2023)

The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism (Picador, 2008)

No Logo: No Space, No Choice, No Jobs by Naomi Klein (Picador, 1999)

Backlash by Susan Faludi (1991)

The Age of Surveillance Capitalism: The Fight for a Human Future at the New Frontier of Power by Shoshana Zuboff (PublicAffairs, 2019)

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• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
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How worried should we be about AI? Sean Illing is joined by Stuart J. Russell, a professor at the University of California Berkeley and director of the Center for Human-Compatible AI. Russell was among the signatories who wrote an open letter asking for a six-month pause on AI training. They discuss the dangers of losing control of AI and what the upsides of this rapidly developing technology could be. 

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Stuart J. Russell, professor at the University of California Berkeley and director of the Center for Human-Compatible AI

References: 

• Pause Giant AI Experiments: An Open Letter
• “AI has much to offer humanity. It could also wreak terrible harm. It must be controlled.” by Stuart Russell (The Observer, April 2023)
• Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach by Stuart J. Russell and Peter Norvig (Pearson Education International) 
• Human-Compatible: Artificial Intelligence and the Problem of Control by Stuart Russell (Penguin Random House, 2020)
• “A Conversation With Bing’s Chatbot Left Me Deeply Unsettled” by Kevin Roose (New York Times, February 2023)

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• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
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Why is democracy worth saving? Sean Illing is joined by Astra Taylor, the author of the new book The Age of Insecurity: Coming Together as Things Fall Apart. They discuss the history and reality of insecurity and how we can fight for more sustainable and meaningful democratic politics.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Astra Taylor (@astradisastra), author, The Age of Insecurity: Coming Together as Things Fall Apart 

References: 

• The Age of Insecurity: Coming Together as Things Fall Apart by Astra Taylor (House of Anansi Press, 2023)
• “What is democracy?” by Astra Taylor 
• The Waste Makers by Vance Packard (Longmans, Green and Co. Ltd, 1960)
• Decades of Decadence: How Our Spoiled Elites Blew America's Inheritance of Liberty, Security, and Prosperity by Marco Rubio (HarperCollins, 2023) 

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This episode was made by: 

• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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What will American politics look like after Trump? Sean Illing is joined by Sohrab Ahmari to discuss his new book, Tyranny, Inc. Ahmari is one of the conservative intellectuals trying to map out a post-Trump future for the Republican Party, and his book is an attempt to justify a form of democratic socialism from the right. The two discuss whether his vision could ever be the basis for a broader coalition.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Sohrab Ahmari (@SohrabAhmari), author, Tyranny, Inc.

References: 

• Tyranny, Inc. by Sohrab Ahmari (Penguin Random House, 2023)
• American Capitalism: The Concept of Countervailing Power by John Galbraith (Routledge, 1993)
• Thus Spake Zarathustra by Friedrich Nietzsche
• “Social Democracy and Social Conservatism Aren’t Compatible” by Matt McManus (Jacobin, August 2023)

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This episode was made by: 

• Engineer: Erica Huang
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Why don’t we spend more time imagining a better future? Sean Illing is joined by Kristen R. Ghodsee, the author of Everyday Utopia: What 2,000 Years of Wild Experiments Can Teach Us About the Good Life. They discuss why it’s hard to imagine better outcomes in life, what we can learn from experimental living communities, and what the pandemic proved about our adaptability.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Kristen R. Ghodsee, author, Everyday Utopia: What 2,000 Years of Wild Experiments Can Teach Us About the Good Life

References:

Everyday Utopia: What 2,000 Years of Wild Experiments Can Teach Us About the Good Life by Kristen R. Ghodsee (Simon & Schuster, 2023)

Why Women Have Better Sex Under Socialism: And Other Arguments for Economic Independence by Kristen R. Ghodsee (Hachette, 2018)

Life of Pythagoras, or Pythagoric Life, by (Chalcidensis) Iamblichus

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This episode was made by: 

• Engineer: Erica Huang
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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In this episode, which was originally published in August 2022, Sean Illing talks with Corey Robin, author of a 2019 book about the life and thought of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. Robin discusses how Thomas — whose concurring opinion in the case that overturned Roe v. Wade garnered recent attention — developed the ideological basis of his extremist judicial philosophy, how his views went from the hard-right fringe to more mainstream over the course of his 30 years on the Supreme Court, and how the failures of the 1960s movements shaped his fundamental pessimism about racial progress in America.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Corey Robin (@CoreyRobin), author; professor of political science, Brooklyn College and CUNY Graduate Center

References: 

• The Enigma of Clarence Thomas by Corey Robin (Metropolitan; 2019)
• "The Self-Fulfilling Prophecies of Clarence Thomas" by Corey Robin (New Yorker; July 9)
• Clarence Thomas's opening statement, Anita Hill hearing (C-SPAN; Oct. 11, 1991)
• Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison (1952)
• Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization (2022); Thomas's concurrence
• American Negro Slave Revolts by Herbert Aptheker (1943)
• Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution - 1863–1877 by Eric Foner (1988; updated 2014)
• The Culture of Narcissism: American Life in An Age of Diminishing Expectations by Christopher Lasch (Norton; 1979)
• The Rhetoric of Reaction by Albert O. Hirschman (Harvard; 1991)

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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What does masculinity mean these days? Sean Illing speaks with Christine Emba, a columnist at The Washington Post who wrote the piece “Men are lost. Here’s a map out of the wilderness.” Together they discuss the confusing state of manhood, why figures like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate hold appeal, and how masculinity could be redefined.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Christine Emba (@ChristineEmba), Washington Post columnist and author of Rethinking Sex: A Provocation

References:

• “Men are lost. Here’s a map out of the wilderness” by Christine Emba (The Washington Post, July 10, 2023)
• Rethinking Sex: A Provocation by Christine Emba (Sentinel, 2022)
• “Did the sexual revolution go wrong?” from The Gray Area (Vox, May 11, 2022)
• “Men and boys are struggling. Should we care?” from The Gray Area (Vox, December 12, 2022)
• “The Rage and Joy of MAGA America” by David French (The New York Times, July 6, 2023)

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This episode was made by: 

• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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What does it mean to be “authentic” in the digital age? Sean Illing speaks with Tara Isabella Burton about her new book, Self-Made: Creating Our Identities From Da Vinci to the Kardashians. They discuss the history of self-creation, how it’s evolved into personal branding, and why a more collective mindset could benefit all of us.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Tara Isabella Burton (@NotoriousTIB), author of Self-Made: Creating our Identities from Da Vinci to Kardashian

References: 

• Self-Made: Creating our Identities from Da Vinci to Kardashian by Tara Isabella Burton (Hachette, 2023)
• Strange Rites: New Religions for a Godless World by Tara Isabella Burton (Hachette, 2022)
• The Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoyevsky

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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In the ‘80s and ‘90s, MDMA (also known as molly or ecstasy) was dismissed as a club drug and became the target of anti-drug propaganda. Today, it’s on the brink of being legalized for use in clinical therapy to treat conditions like PTSD. How did that happen? And what have we learned about the therapeutic potential of MDMA? Sean discusses all this with Rachel Nuwer, author of I Feel Love: MDMA and the Quest for Connection in a Fractured World. They talk about why they’re excited by the research underway and what it might mean for everyone's well-being.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Rachel Nuwer (@RachelNuwer), journalist and author of I Feel Love: MDMA and the Quest for Connection in a Fractured World

References: 

“The extraordinary therapeutic potential of psychedelic drugs, explained,” by Sean Illing (Vox; March 8, 2019)

How to Change Your Mind: What the New Science of Psychedelics Teaches Us About Consciousness, Dying, Addiction, Depression, and Transcendence, by Michael Pollan

“Rolling under the Sea: Scientists Gave Octopuses Ecstasy to Study Social Behavior,” by Rachel Nuwer (Scientific American, December 1, 2018)

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This episode was made by: 

Producer: Erikk Geannikis

Engineer: Patrick Boyd

Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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There are many ways people are trying to know themselves these days – from taking the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator test to analyzing their astrological birth charts to identifying their attachment styles. But are any of these methods helpful? Allie Volpe, a senior reporter at Vox, discusses this with Mitch Green, a philosophy professor at the University of Connecticut and author of the book Know Thyself: The Value and Limits of Self-Knowledge. Together they explore why there’s an increased interest in self-knowledge, the merits of self-discovery, and the best way to truly know ourselves.

Host: Allie Volpe (@allieevolpe), Senior Reporter, Vox

Guest: Mitch Green, Philosophy professor at the University of Connecticut

References: 

• “A personality test can’t tell you who you are” by Allie Volpe (Vox, Jun. 2023)
• Know Thyself: The Value and Limits of Self-Knowledge by Mitchell S. Green (2017, Routledge)
• “Why the Meyers-Briggs test is totally meaningless” by Joseph Stromberg and Estelle Caswell (Vox, Oct. 2015)
• Strangers to Ourselves: Discovering the Adaptive Unconscious by Timothy D. Wilson (Harvard University Press, 2004)

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This episode was made by: 

• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Does being a parent today necessarily mean also being a climate activist? Sean Illing speaks with moral philosopher and political theorist Elizabeth Cripps about her new book Parenting on Earth, in which she discusses the real-life moral obligations of raising children in our current ecological crisis. Drawing from her experience raising two daughters, Elizabeth and Sean talk about how both to want the best for your children and to build a better society, the conflicts that arise from putting trust in institutions, and arguments made by some that we shouldn't be having kids at all.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Elizabeth Cripps (@ebcripps), senior lecturer in political theory, University of Edinburgh; author

References: 

• Parenting on Earth: A Philosopher's Guide to Doing Right By Your Kids and Everyone Else by Elizabeth Cripps (MIT Press; 2023)
• What Climate Justice Means And Why We Should Care by Elizabeth Cripps (Bloomsbury; 2022)
• "Moral Saints" by Susan Wolf (Journal of Philosophy, vol. 79 no. 8; Aug. 1982)
• Family Values: The Ethics of Parent-Child Relationships by Harry Brighouse and Adam Swift (Princeton University Press; 2014)
• How to Blow Up a Pipeline by Andreas Malm (Verso; 2021)
• "The case for a more radical climate movement" by Sean Illing (Vox; Oct. 1, 2021)

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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When we find ourselves in a dark place, what if we didn't "lighten things up"? Sean Illing talks with philosopher Mariana Alessandri, whose new book Night Vision offers a new way of understanding our dark moods and experiences like depression, pain, and grief. Alessandri describes the deep influence of what she calls the "light metaphor" — the belief that light is good and darkness is bad — and the destructive emotional cycles it has produced. They discuss the influence of Stoic philosophy, Aristotelian ethics, and contemporary self-help — and explore what new paradigms for emotional intelligence might entail.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Mariana Alessandri (@mariana.alessandri), professor of philosophy, University of Texas Rio Grande Valley; author

References: 

• Night Vision: Seeing Ourselves through Dark Moods by Mariana Alessandri (Princeton; 2023)
• Plato's "allegory of the cave" from the Republic, VI (514a–520a)
• The Power of Positive Thinking by Norman Vincent Peale (1952)
• The Encheiridion (or "Handbook") of Epictetus (c. 50 – c. 125 AD)
• The Dialogues and letters of Seneca (c. 4 BC – 65 AD)
• The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius (121 – 180 AD)
• The Tusculan Disputations of Cicero (106 – 43 BC)
• Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics
• It's OK That You're Not OK by Megan Devine (Sounds True; 2017)
• Our Lord Don Quixote by Miguel de Unamuno (1914; tr. 1968)
• Borderlands/La Frontera: The New Mestiza by Gloria Anzaldúa (Aunt Lute; 1987)

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing talks with Carrie Jenkins about her new book Sad Love, and her call to rethink the shape and boundaries of romantic love. In this far-ranging discussion about the meaning of romantic love, Sean and Carrie discuss the connection between love and happiness, what we should expect (and not expect) from our romantic partners, and whether or not loving a person must entail that we love only that person.

This was originally released as an episode of Vox Conversations in September 2022.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Carrie Jenkins (@carriejenkins), writer; professor of philosophy, University of British Columbia

References: 

• Sad Love: Romance and the Search for Meaning by Carrie Jenkins (Polity; 2022)
• "A philosopher makes the case for polyamory" by Sean Illing (Vox; Feb. 16, 2018)
• What Love Is: And What It Could Be by Carrie Jenkins (Basic; 2017)
• Nausea by Jean-Paul Sartre (1949)
• Nicomachean Ethics by Aristotle (see Book I, or Book X.6-8 for robust discussion of eudaimonia)
• Marina Adshade, economist
• Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl (1946; tr. Ilse Lasch)

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Editor: Amy Drozdowska
• Engineers: Patrick Boyd & Cristian Ayala
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing talks with evolutionary anthropologist David Samson, whose new book Our Tribal Future delves into how tribalism has shaped the human story — and how we might be able to mitigate its negative effects in the future. Sean and David discuss how and when tribal organization came on the scene, what changed in human organization when it did, and how taking advantage of some positive aspects of tribal alignment could provide a path toward inoculating humanity against stubborn, regressive divisiveness.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: David Samson (@Primalprimate), professor of anthropology, University of Toronto; author

References: 

• Our Tribal Future: How to Channel Our Foundational Human Instincts into a Force for Good by David R. Samson (St. Martin's; 2023)
• "Dunbar's number" by Robin Dunbar (New Scientist)
• The Nunn Lab, Duke University
• PDF: Surgeon General's Advisory on Our Epidemic of Loneliness and Isolation (May 3)
• "Human Response to Disaster" by Charles E. Fritz (Proceedings of the HFES, vol. 18 no. 3; 1974)
• Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind by Yuval Noah Harari (Signal; 2014)
• The Expanding Circle: Ethics, Evolution, and Moral Progress by Peter Singer (Princeton; 2011)
• "Peter Singer on his ethical legacy" (The Gray Area; May 25)
• Blueprint: The Evolutionary Origins of a Good Society by Nicholas A. Christakis (Little Brown Spark; 2019)
• Bill Nye debates Ken Ham (Feb. 4, 2014)
• God and Evolution? The Implications of Darwin's Theory for Fundamentalism, the Bible, and the Meaning of Life by Daniel J. Samson (Solon; 2006)

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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What do we do when an artist we love does something monstrous? Constance Grady, a culture writer at Vox, talks with Claire Dederer, the author of Monsters: A Fan’s Dilemma. They discuss how to reckon with the facts and feelings of consuming art by someone who's done something bad, if it's possible to separate the art from the artist, and what responsibility — if any — comes with being a fan.

Host: Constance Grady, (@constancegrady), culture and gender writer

Guest: Claire Dederer, author of Monsters: A Fan’s Dilemma 

References: 

• Monsters: A Fan’s Dilemma by Claire Dederer (Penguin Random House, 2023)
• “What Do We Do with the Art of Monstrous Men?” by Claire Dederer (The Paris Review, 2017)
• Dept. of Speculation by Jenny Ofill (Penguin Random House, 2014)
• Mad at Miles: A Blackwoman’s Guide to Truth by Pearl Cleage (Cleage Group Publication, 1990)

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This episode was made by: 

• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing talks with Clancy Martin, professor of philosophy at University of Missouri Kansas City, about his powerful new book How Not to Kill Yourself, which combines personal memoir and philosophical analysis to explore what it means to pursue self-destruction. They discuss wisdom from the Buddha and Albert Camus, Clancy's view that he is a suicide "addict," and concrete strategies for escaping the grip of suicidal thoughts.

If you or someone you know is struggling with suicidal thoughts, the suicide and crisis lifeline can be reached by dialing 988.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Clancy Martin, professor of philosophy, University of Missouri-Kansas City; author

References: 

• How Not to Kill Yourself: A Portrait of the Suicidal Mind by Clancy Martin (Pantheon; 2023)
• Facts about suicide (from the CDC, and the WHO
• James Hillman, Suicide and the Soul (1973)
• "Lessons from jumping off the Golden Gate bridge—survivor shares his story to help others" by Keisha Reynolds (MyCG; Sept. 8, 2022)
• Arthur Schopenhauer, On the Suffering of the World (1850)

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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What is the future of the racial justice movement in America? Sean Illing talks with Cedric Johnson, professor and author of After Black Lives Matter, about building a protest movement that meaningfully recognizes the underlying economic causes of the social inequities highlighted by the BLM movement. They discuss the demonstrations of Summer 2020, the prospects of building a multiracial class-conscious coalition, and viewing urban policing as a symptom of larger systemic problems.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Cedric Johnson, professor of Black Studies and Political Science, University of Illinois Chicago

References: 

• After Black Lives Matter: Policing and Anti-Capitalist Struggle by Cedric G. Johnson (Verso; 2023)
• "Amid Protests, Majorities Across Racial and Ethnic Groups Express Support for Black Lives Matter Movement" (Pew Research Center; June 12, 2020)
• "Veto-proof majority of Minneapolis council members supports dismantling police department" by Brandt Williams (MPR; June 7, 2020)
• "'I'm not angry at all': Owner of looted Chicago photo shop vows to rebuild" by Ben Harris (Times of Israel; June 3, 2020)
• "Notes Toward a New Society: Rousseau and the New Left" by Marshall Berman (Partisan Review, 38 (4); Fall 1971)
• "Marshall Berman's Freestyle Marxism" by Max Holleran (The New Republic; Apr. 14, 2017)
• Achieving Our Country: Leftist Thought in Twentieth-Century America by Richard Rorty (Harvard University Press; 1999)
• Violence Work: State Power and the Limits of Police by Micol Seigel (Duke University Press; 2018)
• "The systemic issues revealed by Jordan Neely's killing, explained" by Nicole Narea and Li Zhou (Vox; May 12)
• The American Revolution: Pages from a Negro Worker's Notebook by James Boggs (1963)
• "Official Poverty Measure Masks Gains Made Over Last 50 Years" by Arloc Sherman (Center on Budget and Policy Priorities; Sept. 2013)
• "300 transit ambassadors become new sets of eyes and ears for LA Metro" by Steve Scauzillo (Daily News; Mar. 6)

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Have clicks, likes, and shares driven media and democracy to the point of disrepair? Sean Illing is joined by Ben Smith, the editor-in-chief of Semafor and the author of "Traffic: Genius, Rivalry, and Delusion in the Billion-Dollar Race to Go Viral." Together, they discuss how newsrooms were transformed by social media and the pursuit of traffic, and what the future of the industry might look like.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Ben Smith (@semaforben), editor-in-chief of Semafor, author of Traffic: Genius, Rivalry, and Delusion in the Billion-Dollar Race to Go Viral

References: 

• Traffic: Genius, Rivalry, and Delusion in the Billion-Dollar Race to Go Viral by Ben Smith (Penguin Random House, 2023)
• “How corporations got all your data” by The Gray Area (Vox, Mar. 2023)

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This episode was made by: 

• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Sean Illing speaks with history professor Robert Zaretsky about Simone Weil, a 20th-century French writer and activist who dedicated her life to a radical philosophy of love and attention. They discuss how she inspired her contemporaries — like Albert Camus and Simone de Beauvoir — and how her revolutionary ideas have remained relevant and important.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Robert Zaretsky, history professor, The University of Houston

References: 

• The Subversive Simone Weil: A Life in Five Ideas by Robert Zaretsky (The University of Chicago Press, 2021)
• “The Philosophers: Resisting Despair” by Sean Illing (Vox, May 2022)
• The Ethics of Attention: Engaging the Real with Iris Murdoch and Simone Weil by Silvia Caprioglio Panizza (Routledge, 2022)

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This episode was made by: 

• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Can we live a good life in a world where animals are factory farmed? Guest host Dylan Matthews talks with the world-famous ethicist Peter Singer, author of Animal Liberation Now, the newly revised edition of his movement-founding 1975 work. They talk about the progress made by the animal rights movement — and the issues it still faces. Dylan also questions Singer on other aspects of his career as an outspoken popularizer of philosophy and ethics, including his positions on physician-assisted dying, abortion rights, and effective altruism.

Host: Dylan Matthews (@dylanmatt), senior correspondent, Vox

Guest: Peter Singer (@PeterSinger), Ira W. DeCamp Professor of Bioethics, Princeton University; author

References: 

• Animal Liberation Now by Peter Singer (Harper Perennial; 2023), an updated version of Animal Liberation by Peter Singer (HarperCollins; 1975)
• Peter Singer Live on Stage: tickets and more info
• "Animal Liberation" by Peter Singer (New York Review of Books, Apr. 5, 1973)
• Unsanctifying Human Life: Essays on Ethics by Peter Singer (Wiley-Blackwell; 2002)
• Practical Ethics by Peter Singer (Cambridge; 1979)
• "Unspeakable Conversations" by Harriet McBryde Johnson (NYT Magazine; Feb. 16, 2003)
• "Famine, Affluence, and Morality" by Peter Singer (Philosophy & Public Affairs, vol. 1 no. 3; Spring, 1972)
• Giving What We Can
• Jeremy Bentham, An Introduction to the Principles of Morals and Legislation (1789)
• "Sam Bankman-Fried tries to explain himself" by Kelsey Piper (Vox; Nov. 16, 2022)
• The St. Petersburg Paradox
• Henry Sidgwick, The Methods of Ethics (1874)
• Moral Thinking by R.M. Hare (Oxford; 1982)
• Ethics and the Limits of Philosophy by Bernard Williams (Harvard; 1986)

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Are we responsible for keeping poor people poor? Sean Illing is joined by Matt Desmond, a sociology professor at Princeton University and the author of the books Evicted: Poverty and Profit in the American City and Poverty, by America. They discuss why most Americans are unaware of their privilege and how their choices perpetuate poverty. They also discuss the power and hope that can come from bringing awareness to these choices and why abolishing poverty is possible.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Matthew Desmond, Sociology professor, and author of Poverty, by America

References: 

• Poverty, by America by Matthew Desmond (Penguin Random House, 2023)
• Evicted: Poverty And Profit In The American City by Matthew Desmond (Penguin Random House, 2017)
• “Why even brilliant scholars misunderstand poverty in America” by Dylan Matthews (Vox, Mar. 2023) 

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This episode was made by: 

• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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The pandemic caused many to rethink our relationship to work. But how did that relationship develop in the first place? Sean Illing talks with George Blaustein, professor of American Studies, about the legacy and influence of Max Weber, the German theorist whose best-known work is The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism (1905) — which, Blaustein says, is often misunderstood. In the summer of 2020, George wrote an essay interpreting Weber's ideas on the psychology of work, the origins of capitalism, and the isolation of modernity — just as it looked like everything might change.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: George Blaustein (@blauwsteen), senior lecturer of American Studies and History, University of Amsterdam; editor, European Review of Books

References: 

• "Searching for Consolation in Max Weber's Work Ethic" by George Blaustein (The New Republic; July 2, 2020)
• The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism by Max Weber (1905; tr. by Talcott Parsons, 1930)
• The Vocation Lectures, by Max Weber: "Science as a Vocation" (1917) & "Politics as a Vocation" (1919). Published together as Charisma and Disenchantment: The Vocation Lectures (NYRB, 2020; translated by Damion Searls)
• Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin (1536)
• Der Amerikamüde by Nikolaus Lenau (1855)
• The Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels (1848)
• Bullshit Jobs: A Theory by David Graeber (Simon & Schuster; 2018)
• "Bullshit jobs: why they exist and why you might have one" by Sean Illing (Vox; Nov. 9, 2019)

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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What do we know — and what don't we know — about how the human mind works? Sean Illing talks with Paul Bloom, professor of psychology and author of the new book Psych: The Story of the Human Mind. In this conversation, Sean and Paul talk about some of the most interesting and confounding questions in psychology. They discuss the problematic theories of some giants in the history of the field, the way that AI might change psychology, and whether or not the discipline is any closer to understanding the nature of mental illness.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Paul Bloom (@paulbloomatyale), Professor of Psychology, University of Toronto; Professor Emeritus, Yale University; author

References: 

• Psych: The Story of the Human Mind by Paul Bloom (Ecco; 2023)
• The Replication Crisis (Psychology Today)
• Freud's "primal scene" is taken from his "From the History of an Infantile Neurosis" (a.k.a. the "Wolf Man" case) (1918)
• The Mating Mind: How Sexual Choice Shaped the Evolution of Human Nature by Geoffrey Miller (Anchor; 2001)
• Aspects of the Theory of Syntax by Noam Chomsky (MIT Press; 1965)
• On Geoffrey Hinton: "'The Godfather of A.I.' Leaves Google and Warns of Danger Ahead" by Cade Metz (New York Times; May 1)
• "The looming threat of AI to Hollywood, and why it should matter to you" by Alissa Wilkinson (Vox; May 2)
• "Facing Up to the Problem of Consciousness" by David Chalmers (1995)
• A.I. Artificial Intelligence, dir. by Steven Spielberg (2001)
• "Development of the default-mode network during childhood and adolescence" by F. Fan et al. (Neuroimage; Feb. 2021)
• The Infant Cognition Center at Yale
• The National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH)

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Engineers: Patrick Boyd & Brandon McFarland
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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There are many debates within the American left, but the fundamental dispute is over the viability of the current system. Part of the left wants a revolution, and part wants reform. Sean Illing is joined by Eric Levitz, a features writer for New York magazine’s Intelligencer. They discuss the revolution versus reform divide and what can be done to navigate the US’s capitalist and constitutional systems in order to advance the left’s agenda.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Eric Levitz (@EricLevitz), features writer, New York Magazine’s Intelligencer 

References: 

• “Blaming ‘Capitalism’ Is Not an Alternative to Solving Problems” by Eric Levitz (April, 2023 New York Magazine)

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This episode was made by: 

• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Will AI change what it means to be human? Sean Illing talks with essayist Meghan O'Gieblyn, author of God, Human, Animal, Machine, a book about how the way we understand human nature has been interwoven with how we understand our own technology. They discuss the power of metaphor in describing fundamental aspects of being human, the "transhumanism" movement, and what we're after when we seek companionship in a chatbot.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Meghan O'Gieblyn, essayist; author

References: 

• God, Human, Animal, Machine: Technology, Metaphor, and the Search for Meaning by Meghan O'Gieblyn (Anchor; 2021)
• The Age of Spiritual Machines by Ray Kurzweil (Penguin; 1999)
• The Sociology of Religion by Max Weber (1920)
• "Facing Up to the Problem of Consciousness" by David Chalmers (1995)
• The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes (1976)
• "Routine Maintenance" by Meghan O'Gieblyn (Harper's; Jan. 2022)
• "Babel" by Meghan O'Gieblyn (n+1; Summer 2021)
• The Society of Mind by Marvin Minsky (Simon & Schuster; 1986)
• Job (Old Testament), 38:1 – 42:6
• "The Google engineer who thinks the company's AI has come to life" by Nitasha Tiku (Washington Post; June 11, 2022)
• The Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoevsky (1880)
• "Will AI Achieve Consciousness? Wrong Question" by Daniel Dennett (WIRED; Feb. 19, 2019)

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Why don't more philosophers take psychedelic drugs seriously as a means of examining reality? Sean Illing talks with Justin Smith-Ruiu, professor of philosophy, whose recent essay "This Is a Philosopher on Drugs" tells of how experimenting with psilocybin and other substances led to a radical reevaluation of nearly everything in his life — including his views on the nature of reality. They discuss the roots of an alternative worldview in the thought of German polymath G.W. Leibniz, what it means to say — as Socrates does — that philosophy is "preparation for death," and why psychedelics aren't more often explored in contemporary philosophy.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Justin Smith-Ruiu, philosopher; author

References: 

• "This Is a Philosopher on Drugs" by Justin E.H. Smith (Wired; Mar. 7)
• Justin Smith-Ruiu's Hinternet (Substack)
• The Internet Is Not What You Think It Is by Justin E.H. Smith (Princeton; 2022)
• "The brutal mirror: What the psychedelic drug ayahuasca showed me about my life" by Sean Illing (Vox; Nov. 2, 2019)
• G.W. Leibniz, "The Monadology" (1714)
• René Descartes, Meditations on First Philosophy (1641)
• Irrationality: A History of the Dark Side of Reason by Justin E.H. Smith (Princeton; 2019)
• Plato, Phaedo (for Socrates's claim that philosophy is preparation for death)
• Reality+ by David Chalmers (W.W. Norton; 2022)
• David Chalmers on The Gray Area (Jan. 10, 2022)
• Justin's review of David Chalmers: "The World as a Game" (Liberties, vol. 2 no. 4)
• "The Death of Ivan Ilych" by Leo Tolstoy (1886)
• How to Change Your Mind by Michael Pollan (Penguin; 2018)

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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What happens when you apply the Socratic method to personal relationships? Philosopher Agnes Callard joins Sean Illing to discuss how Socrates inspires her public philosophy project —including the decision to share the details of her love life and how these pursuits have created a more thoughtful and meaningful life.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Agnes Callard, (@agnescallard), philosopher, University of Chicago

References: 

• “Agnes Callard’s Marriage Of The Minds” by Rachel Aviv (Mar. 2023, The New Yorker)
• ”Everyone Desires the Good: Socrates' Protreptic Theory of Desire” by Agnes Callard (June 2017, The Review of Metaphysics)
• “A Philosopher Gets Fed Up With Profundity” by Agnes Callard (Mar. 2023, The Atlantic)
• Plato, Gorgias
• Plato, Symposium
• Plato, Meno

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This episode was made by: 

• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Could our brains make us less lonely? Sean Illing talks with psychiatrist and author Julie Holland, whose new book Good Chemistry takes on the crisis of disconnectedness we face today. They discuss the brain chemistry of attachment and human connection, how psychedelics can be used both in therapeutic contexts and to help us feel more connected to others, and the toll that this crisis of isolation can take on us — emotionally, physically, and spiritually.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Julie Holland, MD (@BellevueDoc), psychiatrist; medical advisor to MAPS; author

References: 

• Good Chemistry: The Science of Connection from Soul to Psychedelics by Julie Holland (Harper; 2022)
• "Work and the Loneliness Epidemic" by Vivek Murthy (Harvard Business Review; Sept. 26, 2017)
• "Loneliness in U.S. Subsides From Pandemic High" by Dan Witters (Gallup; Apr. 4)
• The Red Book by Carl Jung (written from 1914–1930; pub. Norton; 2009)
• "People would rather be electrically shocked than left alone with their thoughts" by Nadia Whitehead (Science; July 3, 2014)
• "Mammalian central nervous system trace amines" by Mark D. Berry (Journal of Neurochemistry; vol. 90 (2), July 2004)
• "The connection between oxytocin and autism, explained" by Peter Hess (Spectrum; Jan. 6, 2022)
• Moody Bitches by Julie Holland (Penguin; 2016)
• "Youth Suicide Risk Increased Over Past Decade" by Farzana Akkas (Pew; Mar. 3)
• "MAPS predicts FDA approval for MDMA-assisted therapy in 2024" by Brian Buntz (Drug Discovery & Development ; Jan. 27)
• "Psychedelics May Be Part of U.S. Medicine Sooner Than You Think" by Jamie Ducharme (TIME; Feb. 8)
• Alex & Allyson Grey
• "Can magic mushrooms unlock depression?" by Dr. Rosalind Watts (Medium; Feb. 28, 2022)
• How Psychedelics Can Help Save the World by Stephen Gray; foreword by Julie Holland (Park Street Books; 2022)

Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.

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Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts

This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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