The Lawfare Podcast

Janet Egan, Senior Fellow at the Center for a New American Security (CNAS) and Lennart Heim, an AI researcher at RAND, join Kevin Frazier, a Tarbell Fellow at Lawfare, to analyze the interim final rule on AI diffusion announced by the Bureau of Industry and Security on January 13, 2025. This fourth-quarter effort by the Biden Administration to shape AI policy may have major ramifications on the global race for AI dominance. 

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In a live conversation on January 15, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes spoke to Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien and Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower and Scott Anderson about the second day of confirmation hearings for President-elect Donald Trump’s cabinet. They discussed the hearings for Pam Bondi’s nomination to be attorney general, John Ratcliffe’s nomination to be CIA director, and Marco Rubio’s nomination to be secretary of state, and how collegial or contentious each hearing was.

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This week, Scott sat down with his Lawfare colleagues Roger Parloff, Renée DiResta, and Tyler McBrien to talk through the week’s big national security news, including:

• “The Art of the Heel.” As President-elect Donald Trump’s inauguration nears, the various legal cases against him are gradually winding down to their inevitable end. But Trump is not letting them go quietly: instead, he has fought certain final steps tooth and nail, ranging from the (mostly meaningless) sentencing in his New York case to the final release of the report that Special Counsel Jack Smith is obligated to write. How do these various threads seem like they will resolve? And what will the legacy be for presidential accountability?
• “Make Meta MAGA Again.” The recent election appears to be triggering a wave of changes in corporate America, as a number of leading tech companies like Meta have begun quite publicly breaking down disinformation protections, paring back DEI programs, and eliminating offices and personnel that have long peeved conservatives. And even CEOs who have not implemented such changes have seemed eager to meet with Trump at his home in Mar-a-Lago. How much of this shift is smoke and how much is fire? And what might it mean in the long term?
• “Embracing a Growth Mindset.” President-elect Trump sent shivers through the international community last week when he refused to rule out the possibility of using economic coercion or even military force to expand U.S. territorial control, specifically over Greenland and the Panama Canal, two allied foreign territories that he has previously identified as having a direct bearing on U.S. national interests. How realistic are his threats? And what are the ramifications likely to be?

In object lessons, Tyler shared why there seem to be so many Australians in Brooklyn, as reported in “Bogans in Brooklyn,” from The Baffler (say that three times fast). Roger recommended “V13: Chronicle of a Trial” by Emmanuel Carrère, for coverage of a different trial than the ones he's been used to. Scott, in a stubborn refusal to admit that the holidays are over, was jolly about the Netflix movie “That Christmas.” And Renée reflected on AI’s potential to help people reach consensus through democratic deliberation and supernotes.

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In a live conversation on January 14, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes spoke to Lawfare Senior Editor Anna Bower about the confirmation hearing of Pete Hegseth by the Senate Armed Services committee on his expected nomination to be secretary of defense, the first confirmation hearing for one of President-elect Trump’s cabinet nominations in his second term.

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For today’s episode, Jennifer Gellie, the Chief of the Counterintelligence and Export Control Section ("CES") in the National Security Division of the U.S. Department of Justice, sits down with Lawfare Senior Editor and General Counsel Scott R. Anderson and Lawfare Contributing Editor and Morrison Foerster partner Brandon Van Grack to discuss new proposed regulations her office has issued for implementing the Foreign Agents Registration Act ("FARA"). 

They cover how the role of FARA has changed in recent decades, what the new regulations change and leave the same, and what the Justice Department's FARA-related priorities are likely to be in 2025. 

This episode is part of the “The Regulators” series, in which Brandon and Scott sit down with senior U.S. officials working at the front lines of U.S. national security and economic statecraft.

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In a live conversation on January 10, Lawfare Tarbell Fellow in Artificial Intelligence Kevin Frazier talked to Lawfare Senior Editor Alan Rozenshtein and Senior Staff Attorney at the Knight Institute Ramya Krishnan about the Supreme Court oral arguments over the legislation passed by Congress that bans TikTok unless its parent company ByteDance divests from the app, the arguments made by the different sides, and their predictions about how the Court might rule.

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This episode of “Lawfare Live: Trump’s Trials and Tribulations,” was recorded on January 10 in front of a live audience on YouTube and Zoom.

Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes spoke to Lawfare Senior Editors Anna Bower and Quinta Jurecic and Managing Editor Tyler McBrien about the sentencing of Donald Trump in the New York hush money case, what the prosecution, defense, and Justice Merchan said in court, and the litigation over the release of Special Counsel Jack Smith’s Final Report in the Jan. 6 and classified document prosecutions.

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From May 12, 2023: Earlier this year, Brian Fishman published a fantastic paper with Brookings thinking through how technology platforms grapple with terrorism and extremism, and how any reform to Section 230 must allow those platforms space to continue doing that work. That’s the short description, but the paper is really about so much more—about how the work of content moderation actually takes place, how contemporary analyses of the harms of social media fail to address the history of how platforms addressed Islamist terror, and how we should understand “the original sin of the internet.” 

For this episode of Arbiters of Truth, our occasional series on the information ecosystem, Lawfare Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic sat down to talk with Brian about his work. Brian is the cofounder of Cinder, a software platform for the kind of trust and safety work we describe here, and he was formerly a policy director at Meta, where he led the company’s work on dangerous individuals and organizations.

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Melissa Stewart, an Assistant Professor of Law at the University of Hawai'i at Mānoa’s William S. Richardson School of Law, joins Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien to discuss the International Court of Justice’s forthcoming advisory opinion on obligations of states in respect of climate change.

Stewart discusses how we got here, the unprecedented level of participation from states and international organizations in written submissions and oral proceedings, and the main arguments put forth during two weeks of those proceedings in December. She also speaks about how, “in the face of limited jurisdictional pathways to pursue direct accountability against the states most responsible for climate change, states are pursuing creative solutions to seek progress before international courts and tribunals”—a phenomenon she coined “jurisdictional ingenuity” in a forthcoming book chapter.

Mentioned in this episode:

“The ICJ’s Advisory Opinion on Climate Change: A Data Analysis of Participants’ Submissions,” by Thomas Burri

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Jack Goldsmith sits down with Orin Kerr, a Professor at Stanford Law School, to discuss his new book, “The Digital Fourth Amendment: Privacy and Policing in Our Online World.” They talk about how Kerr became interested in these issues, the history and physicality assumptions of the Fourth Amendment, and how and why the digital world is different. They also discuss how the courts are interpreting the Fourth Amendment in a digital age, as well as Kerr’s Equilibrium-Adjustment Theory, the core theory of the book.

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This week, Scott sat down with his Lawfare colleagues Molly Reynolds and Kevin Frazier to discuss the week’s big national security news, including:

• “Mike Drop (Almost).” While we are still two weeks away from having a new president, the 119th Congress is already underway. But there are signs of tension in the Republican majority controlling both chambers, with House Republicans (under pressure from former President Trump and adviser Elon Musk) having killed a leadership-negotiated compromise funding bill at the end of the last Congress and Speaker Mike Johnson just barely securing reelection by a single vote after some last minute wrangling within the Republican caucus. What do these recent events tell us about what we should expect over the next year?
• “Will Be Mild.” The Jan. 6 that passed earlier this week went very differently than the one four years ago, with Congress peacefully recognizing former President Trump’s election back to the White House. How are the legacies of the Jan. 6 insurrection of 2021 winding to a close in 2025? And which seem likely to persist?
• “Missed Connections.” Finland received an unwelcome Christmas present this year, after a major undersea telecommunications cable was damaged by the anchor of a suspected Russian shadow ship, in an act some believe was deliberate. And Taiwan rang in the New Year in similar fashion, with a major undersea cable getting damaged by a China-associated vessel. What is behind this set of attacks? And what tools do the affected states have to defend themselves?

In object lessons, Molly shared an excellent holiday tradition to keep in your back pocket for next year and all the years to come: a family time capsule. Scott shared his newly perfected cocktail recipe, a concoction he is calling the Little Palermo™ (see below). And Kevin went a bit darker with his recommendation of “End Times,” by Peter Turchin.

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The Little Palermo™ by Scott R. Anderson

1 oz. brandy

1 oz. cold brew concentrate

3/4 oz. Mr. Black coffee liqueur

3/4 oz. Averna

1/4 oz. rich demerara syrup

2 dashes chicory bitters

Shake vigorously over ice, double strain into a glass, express lemon oil over the top.

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Lawfare Senior Editor Eugenia Lostri sat down with Winnona DeSombre Bernsen, nonresident fellow at the Atlantic Council and founder of the hacker conference DistrictCon, and Nina Alli, Executive Director of the Biohacking Village, to talk about their recent report, “It Takes a Village: Spotlighting Practitioner Driven-Cybersecurity Successes and Future Opportunities.” The report collects the insights of seven cybersecurity villages and outlines the value they can bring to security research and how policymakers can benefit from engaging with them.

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Jessica Pishko, an independent journalist and lawyer who writes about the criminal legal system with a focus on the political power of law enforcement officials, joins Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien to discuss her new book, “The Highest Law in the Land: How the Unchecked Power of Sheriffs Threatens Democracy.”

Pishko discussed the roots of the constitutional sheriffs movement, broke down several myths and realities of the office, and explained the immense appeal sheriffs have for the far-right.

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On today’s podcast, Lawfare Senior Editor and Brookings Senior Fellow Molly Reynolds is joined by Quinta Jurecic, a Fellow at Brookings and Senior Editor at Lawfare, and Ryan Reilly, Justice Reporter at NBC News, to discuss a long-awaited report on Jan. 6 from the Department of Justice’s Inspector General, as well as a new report from House Republicans focusing on the pipe bombs planted outside the Democratic and Republican National Committees as part of the violence that day. They explore what the reports do—and do not—cover, how they fit in with other investigative work on the insurrection, and what the overall landscape of accountability looks like on the precipice of President Trump’s return to office.

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From January 5, 2023: It was a few months ago that something went boom under the sea and the Nord Stream 2 pipelines were severely damaged. Everyone assumed the perpetrator was the Russian Federation because of the Russian Federation’s war in Ukraine, and because the pipeline carried natural gas from Russia to Europe. But, months have gone by and evidence that Russia was behind the Nord Stream attacks has not surfaced.

This was the subject of a lengthy article in the Washington Post, the lead author of which was Shane Harris. Lawfare editor-in-chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Shane to discuss the article, what we know about the Nord Stream attacks, and what we know about who could be behind them.

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From April 8, 2022: Last week on Lawfare Live, Jacob Schulz sat down with Andrew Mines, a research fellow at George Washington University’s Program on Extremism. Mines helps lead the Program on Extremism's efforts to keep track of criminal charges resulting from the Jan. 6 Capitol Hill siege. They talked about the U.S military’s efforts to counter extremism within its ranks. Mines is the recent author of a Lawfare piece on the subject, and they talked through the history of the problem, the history of Defense Department efforts to fix it and where the department is still coming up short.

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On today's podcast, Lawfare Executive Editor Natalie Orpett is joined by Brian Hoxie to get an update on the Uyghur Forced Labor Protection Act (UFLPA). The legislation was passed in 2021 in response to reports that the Chinese government was committing major human rights abuses against its Uyghur population, including disappearances and forced labor. Three years later, where do things stand?

Hoxie is the director of the Forced Labor Division at U.S. Customs and Border Protection's Office of Trade, which is the office charged with enforcing the law. He explained what the law does, how it's implemented on the ground, and what the U.S. government is doing to combat forced labor.

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It's time for Lawfare's annual "Ask Us Anything" podcast.

You called in with your questions, and Lawfare contributors have answers! Benjamin Wittes, Kevin Frazier, Quinta Jurecic, Eugenia Lostri, Alan Rozenshtein, Scott R. Anderson, Natalie Orpett, Amelia Wilson, Anna Bower, and Roger Parloff addressed questions on everything from presidential pardons to the risks of AI to the domestic deployment of the military.

Thank you for your questions. And as always, thank you for listening.

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For the podcast’s annual end-of-year episode, Scott sat down with co-hosts emeritus Alan Rozenshtein and Quinta Jurecic to talk over listener-submitted topics and object lessons, including:

• How will the collapse of the Assad regime impact the region? And can the United States help create a secular, democratic Syria?
• How is the pending TikTok ban even enforceable (if it is)?
• What national security story from 2024 deserved more attention?
• Won’t the Fifth Circuit’s recent Tornado Cash opinion simply lead the Treasury Department to sanction the cryptocurrency Ethereum as a whole?
• What are the most underrated threats to U.S. national security in the last half of this decade?
• What will be the Trump administration’s first major national security misstep?
• How worried should the United States be about the BRIC countries’ recent discussions of forming their own reserve currency?

For object lessons, Trevor recommended insightful indie video games for our three hosts based on their interests: “Bury Me, My Love” for Scott; “We. The Revolution” for Alan; and “Not for Broadcast” for Quinta. Thomas endorsed the podcast and associated media company “Popular Front” on uncovered conflict issues. Keith threw his support behind the podcast “It Did Happen Here” about Portland’s anti-racist skinhead movement. Connor recommended the books “The Queen of Cuba,” by Peter Lapp, and “The President’s Book of Secrets,” by Lawfare alum David Priess, as well as the docuseries “FBI True.” Keenan followed up with another book recommendation, Daniel Immewahr’s “How to Hide an Empire.” And Liz endorsed Gayle Tzemach Lemmon’s “Ashley’s War,” about women who deployed to Afghanistan as cultural support teams for special operations units.

And that’s it for 2024! But don’t worry, Rational Security and the whole Lawfare team will be back with you in the new year to help make sense of what’s to come in national security in 2025—now back at our old release day and time, at midday on Wednesdays (D.C.-time) every week!

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From August 8, 2023: Just weeks ago, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit upheld the life sentence of a Yemeni national serving out his time at the Guantanamo Bay detention center. He had appealed this life sentence, in part on the grounds that his conviction was based on evidence obtained by torture. Meanwhile, at the Guantanamo military commissions, another detainee tried to appeal charges against him on the basis that torture-obtained evidence was used in his referral for trial by the military commissions—but in June, the body that reviews referrals for trials at Guantanamo denied this appeal. He and his co-defendants are currently set to have pre-trial hearings in October. 

All of this is happening despite the fact that in 2022, in a case about a different Guantanamo detainee, the Biden administration’s Justice Department committed to a reinterpretation of a key statute that blocks the use of torture-obtained evidence in Guantanamo litigation and reaffirmed that it would not try to admit statements that the detainee gave while in CIA custody. 

So how and why is it that torture-obtained evidence still seems to be being used in certain GTMO cases? To understand the issues, Lawfare Associate Editor Hyemin Han spoke to Scott Roehm, Director of Global Policy and Advocacy at the Center for Victims of Torture, and an Adjunct Professor of Law at Georgetown Law School. They talked about the history of torture evidence at GTMO, dove into a few cases in context of the Justice Department’s 2022 re-interpretation, and discussed what this all might mean for other GTMO detainees moving forward.  

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After more than three years, Chatter is ending its run. In this episode, Shane and David reflect on the diverse range of topics at the frontiers of national security that this podcast has explored—from spy fiction to lessons of history, from climate change to the visual and musical arts, and from sports and culture to the practice of intelligence.

Along the way, they refer back to many of the podcast’s brilliant guests while lamenting conversations yet unrealized and specific issues yet unaddressed. And they finally ask *each other* several questions from the Chatterbox before closing it. (Forever?)

Works mentioned in this episode: Many too many to list. 

Goodbye, and thank you for listening.

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

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From February 10, 2023: International law has been under significant stress in the last decade as a result of global populism, the rise of China, the war in Ukraine, and the challenges of the pandemic, climate change, and cybersecurity threats, among many others. To discuss why international law seems to be failing in important respects and what to do about it, Jack Goldsmith sat down with Paul Stephan, the John C. Jeffries, Jr., Distinguished Professor of Law at the University of Virginia, and author of the new book, “The World Crisis and International Law: The Knowledge Economy and the Battle for the Future.” They discussed whether international law is truly failing, and if so, how; Stephan's claim that the accelerating pace of technological change induced by the knowledge economy best explains international law’s unraveling; why the highest courts of important states are increasingly rejecting international law and the orders of international courts and tribunals; and Stephan's bottom-up prescriptions for these problems.

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Daniel Holz, professor at the University of Chicago in the Departments of Physics, Astronomy & Astrophysics, Chair of the Science and Security Board of the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, and the founding director of the Existential Risk Laboratory (XLab), joins Kevin Frazier, Senior Research Fellow in the Constitutional Studies Program at the University of Texas at Austin and a Tarbell Fellow at Lawfare, to discuss existential risks, the need for greater awareness and study of those risks, and the purpose of the Doomsday Clock operated by the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists.

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From December 14, 2021: Syria’s decade-long civil war has left the state and economy shells of their former selves. But a new industry is stepping in to fill the void: the manufacture and export of illicit drugs, specifically Captagon, a type of amphetamine that has a growing global market. To better understand Syria’s emerging role in the global Captagon trade, Scott R. Anderson sat down with Caroline Rose of the New Lines Institute, who has been tracking this industry's development for several years and is preparing to release a major report on the topic. They discussed the origins of Captagon, how it came to Syria, and how it is being used by the Assad regime, its allies and their proxies across the region.

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From December 13, 2023: You may have heard of Javier Milei, Argentina’s new president, thanks to some of his eccentricities, like his five cloned dogs or his reliance on a chainsaw prop to illustrate the need to cut public expenditure. But Milei was able to harness the dissatisfaction with a system that has left the country with 150% inflation and over 40% of the population under the line of poverty. Now, the self described anarcho-capitalist libertarian will attempt to turn the economy around with shocking fiscal adjustment.

To discuss this inflection point in Argentina, Lawfare’s Fellow in Technology Policy and Law Eugenia Lostri spoke with Ana Iparraguirre, a partner at consulting firm GBAO and a frequent commentator on leading Latin American media outlets. They talked about Milei’s rise to power, if and how he can deliver on his campaign promises, and what that would even mean for the Argentinian people.

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John Bridgeland, Executive Chair & CEO of More Perfect & former Director of the White House Domestic Policy Council & National Service Czar, joins Kevin Frazier, Senior Research Fellow in the Constitutional Studies Program at the University of Texas at Austin and a Tarbell Fellow at Lawfare, to examine America’s general preparedness for a large-scale conflict and its culture of service (or lack thereof). The two also discuss ongoing efforts to reform and expand military, national, and public service opportunities.

National Commission on Military, National, and Public Service Report: https://docs.house.gov/meetings/AS/AS00/20210519/112680/HHRG-117-AS00-Wstate-HeckJ-20210519-SD001.pdf

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At a recent conference co-hosted by Lawfare and the Georgetown Institute for Law and Technology, Fordham law professor Chinny Sharma moderated a conversation on "Old Laws, New Tech: How Traditional Legal Doctrines Tackle AI,” between NYU law professor Catherine Sharkey, Ohio State University law professor Bryan Choi, and NYU and Cornell Tech postdoctoral fellow Kat Geddes.

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From April 9, 2016: This week on the podcast, we welcome Eric Schwartz, the Dean of the Hubert H. Humphrey School of Public Affairs at the University of Minnesota. Schwartz previously served as U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for Population, Refugees, and Migration. In our conversation, he sketches the key aspects of U.S. refugee policy, explaining how it both protects the security of the United States and at times undermines its ability to accept refugees. Schwartz, who believes the United States has an interest in alleviating the Syrian refugee crisis, outlines what a coherent refugee policy would look like, and argues that the reforms must go beyond simply accepting more refugees.

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Carmen Medina defies simple description. She spent more than 30 years at the CIA, rising to the leadership team of the Directorate of Intelligence, despite her iconoclasticism and vociferous evangelism of new technologies. Since retiring more than a decade ago, she has co-written a book about rebelling within bureaucracy--and advocated the exploration of precognition for intelligence purposes.

She joined David Priess for a wide and deep conversation about her analytic and managerial career, the process and pitfalls of analytic coordination, cooperation between US and UK intelligence, the CIA's incorporation of publish-when-ready technology in the late 1990s, the downside of extensive editorial review of analytic products, the importance of including more intuition in intelligence analysis, why precognition should be taken seriously, and more.

Works mentioned in this episode:

The book Rebels At Work by Lois Kelly and Carmen Medina

The book Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman

The article by Carmen Medina, "The Potential of Integrating Intelligence and Intuition," Cipher Brief, June 10, 2022.

The book American Cosmic by D. W. Pasulka

The book Orbiting the Giant Hairball by Gordon MacKenzie

The book How To Be a Renaissance Woman by Jill Burke

The book 1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed by Eric Cline

The book The Infidel and the Professor by Dennis Rasmussen

The book The Ministry of Time by Kaliane Bradley

The book The Chronoliths by Robert Charles Wilson

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

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From July 31, 2023: This past week, the House Oversight Subcommittee on National Security, the Border, and Foreign Affairs held a spirited hearing on an unusual topic: Unidentified Aerial Phenomena, or UAPs, the more correct term for what are commonly called UFOs, or Unidentified Flying Objects. The witnesses included two military veterans who claimed to have borne eyewitness to UAPs, and an intelligence community whistleblower who claims to have heard secondhand from contacts about a range of government activity relating to extraterrestrials, including the recovery of alien remains and crashed aircraft. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the witnesses’ testimony has triggered an array of strong reactions, from outright scorn and disbelief to an array of boosters eager to tie it into their own worldviews and conspiracy theories. 

To talk through the revelations at this hearing and the debate over UAPs more broadly, Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with veteran Washington Post national security reporter Shane Harris, who has closely followed the debate over UAPs for many years. They talked about how the witnesses’ testimony fits into the broader universe of reports relating to UAPs, what parts reflect serious policy problems and which don't, and how to separate the wheat from the chaff in the broader UAP debate.

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On today's podcast, Lawfare Executive Editor Natalie Orpett talks with Michael Posner, a professor of business and human rights at New York University, about the landmark verdict last month in Al-Shimari v. CACI. The case involved claims against a government contractor for its role in the abuse of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib detention facility in Iraq in 2004. It became the first case of its kind to make it to trial—and now a jury has returned a verdict finding the company liable and imposing $42 million in damages. They discuss how the case will affect private companies, government contractors, and the future of human rights litigation. 

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Please note that this episode contains content that some people may find disturbing. Listener discretion is advised. 

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From April 14, 2023: Over the past few years, TikTok has become a uniquely polarizing social media platform. On the one hand, millions of users, especially those in their teens and twenties, love the app. On the other hand, the government is concerned that TikTok's vulnerability to pressure from the Chinese Communist Party makes it a serious national security threat. There's even talk of banning the app altogether. But would that be legal? In particular, does the First Amendment allow the government to ban an application that’s used by millions to communicate every day?

On this episode of Arbiters of Truth, our series on the information ecosystem, Matt Perault, director of the Center on Technology Policy at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and Alan Z. Rozenshtein, Lawfare Senior Editor and Associate Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota, spoke with Ramya Krishnan, a staff attorney at the Knight First Amendment Institute at Columbia University, and Mary-Rose Papendrea, the Samuel Ashe Distinguished Professor of Constitutional Law at the University of North Carolina School of Law, to think through the legal and policy implications of a TikTok ban.

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From June 15, 2021: A spree of stories has emerged over the last week or so that the Justice Department under the prior administration obtained phone and email records of several journalists, several members of Congress and staffers, and even family members. It has provoked a mini scandal, calls for investigation, howls of rage and serious questions. To discuss it all, Benjamin Wittes sat down with Gabe Rottman of the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press, former FBI agent Pete Strzok, Lawfare senior editor Quinta Jurecic and Berkeley law professor and Lawfare contributing editor Orin Kerr. They talked about what we really know about these stories and what happened in these investigations. Was it all legal? Was it legitimate? How should it be investigated and by whom? And what does it mean that none of the prior attorneys general or deputy attorneys general seem to remember it?

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Adam Thierer, Senior Fellow for the Technology & Innovation team at R Street, joins Kevin Frazier, Senior Research Fellow in the Constitutional Studies Program at the University of Texas at Austin and a Tarbell Fellow at Lawfare, to examine a lengthy, detailed report issued by the Bipartisan House Task Force on AI. Thierer walks through his own analysis of the report and considers some counterarguments to his primary concern that the report did not adequately address the developing patchwork of state AI regulations.

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This week, Scott sat down with his Lawfare colleagues Anna Bower and Natalie Orpett and Lawfare Contributing Editor Michel Paradis to talk about the week’s biggest national security news stories, including:

• “A Justice Delayed Still Has Justice on the Mind.” After weeks of waiting, New York state court judge Justice Juan Merchan has finally become the first judge to apply the Supreme Court’s Trump v. United States immunity decision, holding that incoming President Donald Trump’s convictions under New York state law may stand and did not unduly rely on conduct for which he is immune. How persuasive is his ruling? And what can it tell us about the future of both Donald Trump’s criminal case and the Supreme Court’s immunity holding?
• “A Break in the Case.” Tectonic shifts in Syrian politics over the past few weeks that has led, among other consequences, to the release of thousands of former prisoners, have brought back to the fore the case of Austin Tice, an American journalist who has been missing in Syria for more than a decade. Believed to have been held by the Assad regime before its collapse, some are concerned that he might have been injured or killed during Israeli airstrikes over the past several weeks. What does Tice’s case tell us about the challenges of wrongful detention cases like his? And what should we make of allegations that the Biden administration is not doing enough to bring him back?
• “Gym, Tan, Low-flying Unmanned Aerial Vehicles.” The state of New Jersey has a new signature activity, as Americans and politicians of all stripes have been voicing concern over reports of mysterious drones of unknown origins operating in the state’s skies. What might explain this phenomenon? And what should we make of the reactions around it? 

For object lessons, Anna recommended “Intermezzo,” by Sally Rooney as a read over the holiday. Natalie Orpett endorsed Washington, D.C.’s Eastern Market as a worthwhile visit for holiday shopping, and Scott doubled down with another local recommendation of Middleburg, VA, as a holiday wonderland not to be missed. And Michel wrapped things up with a final endorsement of Weike Wang’s dryly comedic book “Rental House,” for those needing to commiserate over managing family relations over the holiday.

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For today’s episode, Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with Ashley Deeks, a professor at the University of Virginia School of Law, and Kristen Eichensehr, also a professor at the University of Virginia School of Law, but currently a visiting professor at Harvard Law School, to discuss their forthcoming law review article, “Frictionless Government and Foreign Relations,” which focuses on the dangers that can arise in moments where there appears to be broad consensus on a particular set of policies.

They discussed what constitutes frictionless government, where it might exist on the present policy terrain, the risks such circumstances can entail, and strategies policymakers can embrace for managing them.

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In response to the compromise of telecommunication companies by the Chinese hacker group Salt Typhoon, senior officials from the FBI and CISA recommended that American citizens use encrypted messaging apps to minimize the chances of their communications being intercepted. This marks a departure in law enforcement’s position on the use of encrypted communications. 

Susan Landau, Professor of Cyber Security and Policy in Computer Science at Tufts University, and Alan Rozenshtein, Associate Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota Law School and Research Director and Senior Editor at Lawfare, sat down with Lawfare Senior Editor Eugenia Lostri to talk about what the recent FBI recommendation in favor of the use of encrypted messaging apps means for the “Going Dark” debate. 

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Shane Harris makes no secret about his love for the film version of this Cold War submarine thriller, based on the Tom Clancy novel. It’s his favorite movie. So he was delighted to welcome fellow obsessive Katherine Voyles to the podcast. A PhD in English, Voyles writes about national security in culture, as well as the culture of national security. She and Shane talked about why they love the movie, their favorite scenes and characters, and how the story influenced--maybe even created--an entire genre of fiction. They also discussed why it is, actually, a Christmas movie, and their mutual admiration for the martini. 

Voyles’s writing has appeared in in the Los Angeles Review of Books, Foreign Policy, Task &

Purpose, Small Wars Journal, and War on the Rocks. She also works for the Department of Defense. 

In addition to the greatest movie of all time, essays, TV shows, books, and restaurants discussed in this episode include: 

Colson Whitehead’s “The Way We Live Now” https://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/11/magazine/the-way-we-live-now-11-11-01-lost-and-found.html 

Deutschland 83 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4445154/ 

Garrett Graff’s The Only Plane in the Sky https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Only-Plane-in-the-Sky/Garrett-M-Graff/9781501182211 

Lauren Wilkinson’s American Spy https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/253471/american-spy-by-lauren-wilkinson/ 

Saltie Girl https://www.saltiegirl.com/ 

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

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CNN correspondent Elle Reeve has spent the last decade reporting on extremism in the United States. Her book, "Black Pill: How I Witnessed the Darkest Corners of the Internet Come to Life, Poison Society and Capture American Politics" provides an insider's glimpse into the "insidious"—and underestimated—world of alt-right internet culture that is now at the center of the Republican Party under Donald Trump. 

Lawfare Associate Editor Katherine Pompilio sat down with Reeve to discuss her investigative reporting and "Black Pill," incels, political violence, memes, what it's like to build working relationship with alt-right figures, the 2017 Charlottesville Unite the Right Rally, Jan. 6, the 2024 presidential election, and more.

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Sam Manning, Senior Research Fellow at GovAI, joins Kevin Frazier, Assistant Professor at St. Thomas University College of Law and a Tarbell Fellow at Lawfare, to discuss his research on different options to share AI's benefits at the international level. The two also explore Sam's analysis of the incentives that may steer adoption of different benefits sharing strategies and his plans for future AI research. 

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From October 19, 2019: It's been a horrible week in northeastern Syria. The U.S. abandoned its Kurdish allies after the president had a conversation by phone with Turkish President Erdogan and pulled the plug on the stabilizing U.S. presence in the region. The Turkish government began a major incursion over the border, which has produced significant casualties and major questions about ISIS detainees in Kurdish custody.

To talk through it all, we pulled together quite a group. In the first half of the podcast, Benjamin Wittes spoke with Gayle Tzemach Lemmon, an adjunct senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, and Scott R. Anderson and Dan Byman, both of Brookings and Lawfare. In the second half, Ben sat down with Oula A. Alrifai, a fellow with the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, and Leah West, a Lecturer of International Affairs at Carleton University in Canada.

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In a live conversation on December 12, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editors Scott Anderson, Middle East Institute Senior Fellow Charles Lister, and Syrian pro-democracy activist Ammar Abdulhamid to discuss Syrian rebels overthrowing the Bashar al-Assad regime, what the current situation on the ground is, what the reactions of foreign government’s has been, and more.

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At a virtual panel conversation co-hosted by Lawfare and NYU's Center for Technology Policy, center Director Scott Brennen moderated a conversation between Lawfare Senior Editor and University of Minnesota law professor Alan Rozenshtein, University of North Carolina law professor Mary-Rose Papandrea, and Georgetown law professor Anupam Chander, about the recent D.C. Circuit decision upholding the TikTok divestment-or-ban law and what that means for the future of both TikTok and the First Amendment.

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This week, Scott was joined by his Lawfare colleagues Benjamin Wittes, Eugenia Lostri, and Tyler McBrien to break down the week's big national security news, including:

• “The Long Road to Damascus.” Syria’s Assad regime collapsed suddenly last week in the face of a rebel offensive, ending thirteen years of revolution. What comes next, however, is anyone’s guess. How will this shift impact regional security? And how is the incoming Trump administration likely to respond?
• “Pardonez-Moi.” President-elect Donald Trump’s decision to nominate unabashed loyalist Kash Patel—a person who has published a book listing political enemies he thinks should be prosecuted by the Justice Department—for the soon-to-be-vacant position of FBI Director has renewed concerns that the incoming Trump administration will use the Justice Department to prosecute his political enemies. President Biden may have responded in part by pardoning his son Hunter for a wide range of conduct—and some are arguing he should extend similar protections to others the Trump administration may target. How real is the threat of such targeted prosecution? And are preemptive pardons the right protection?
• “Not in Kansas Anymore.” The Fifth Circuit recently issued what may prove to be a landmark sanctions decision, holding that certain Tornado Cash automated cryptocurrency contractual mechanisms sanctioned by the Treasury Department do not constitute “property” within the meaning of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act and thus cannot be sanctioned. It’s also one of the first appellate court decisions to apply the Supreme Court’s recent Loper Bright decision, which ended Chevron deference to agency interpretations of ambiguous statutes, in the national security context. How persuasive is the court’s opinion? And what impact will it have on U.S. policy in this area?

For object lessons, Ben endorsed(?) Kash Patel's three childrens' books as confirmation must-reads. Eugenia amped up everyones' holiday parties with a surefire recipe for maple cookies. Scott recommended the Lion's Tail as a surprisingly seasonal tiki-ish cocktail. And Tyler celebrated transition season with three recommended political profiles, specifically of Kash Patel, Ron Desantis, and Donald Trump circa 1997.

Also, Rational Security will be saying goodbye to 2024 in its traditional fashion: by discussing listener-submitted topics and object lessons! To submit yours, call in to (202) 743-5831 to leave a voicemail or email rationalsecurity@lawfaremedia.org. Just do it by COB on December 18!

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On November 28, Georgia Prime Minister Irakli Kobakhidze announced that he was suspending Georgia’s accession process to the European Union. In the weeks since, thousands of protestors have demonstrated in the capital city, Tbilisi, and across the country. 

Lawfare Associate Editor for Communications Anna Hickey sat down with Dr. Beka Kobakhidze, Professor and Co-chair of MA Program in Modern History of Georgia at Ilia State University, to discuss the protests, Russia’s growing influence in the country and the broader region, and the violence the government has used to crack down on the protests.

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Ukraine’s defense industry has grown substantially after Russia’s full-scale invasion. But it also suffered from a huge domestic burden—a ban on arms exports, which forced companies to close down or relocate abroad. Ukrainian lawmaker Halyna Yanchenko sits down with Lawfare Ukraine Fellow Anastasiia Lapatina to explain why exporting Ukrainian weapons will benefit Ukraine and global security.

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International politics and security expert Dr. Ben Tallis, who now directs the Berlin-based Democratic Strategy Initiative, joined David Priess to discuss the challenges of German grand strategy since 1945, the country's musical culture in the 1950s and 1960s, the origins and evolution of Kraftwerk and its members' effort to reconceptualize German identity, the band's influence on musicians globally, U2 and post-Cold War Europe, how Germany became the most respected country in the world by 2020, Chancellor Angela Merkel's missed opportunities to reconceptualize Germany's international role, the Russian invasion of Ukraine and Chancellor Olaf Scholz's Zeitenwende speech, German rearmament since 2022 compared to Poland, the role of chancellor in the German system, the roster of future German leaders, and whether countries in Central and Eastern Europe would have enough confidence in German resolve to follow more assertive leadership from Berlin.

Mentioned in this episode:

Official website of the band Kraftwerk

The Democratic Strategy Initiative, at www.democratic-strategy.net

The journal article by Benjamin Tallis, "Kraftwerk and the International 'Re-Birth of Germany:' Multiplicity, Identity, and Difference in Music and International Relations," in Cooperation and Conflict, Vol. 57:3 (2022)

The online article by Roderick Parkes, Florence Schimmel, and Benjamin Tallis, "Germany Needs a Strategy--Grand and Democratic," in Internationale Politik Quarterly, January 16, 2024

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

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Jack Goldsmith sits down with Glenn Fine, the former principal deputy Inspector General of the Department of Defense and former Acting IG of the Department of Defense, and author of the new book, “Watchdogs: Inspectors General and the Battle for Honest and Accountable Government.” They discuss the history of inspectors general and early constitutional concerns about the role that inspectors general play, Fine’s experiences at both the Department of Justice and the Department of Defense, the 2022 inspector general reforms and their significance, and Fine’s own proposed reforms to improve inspector general oversight.

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Kevin Xu, founder of Interconnected Capital and author of the Interconnected newsletter, joins Kevin Frazier, Senior Research Fellow in the Constitutional Studies Program at the University of Texas at Austin and a Tarbell Fellow at Lawfare, to analyze China’s AI ambitions, its current AI capacities, and the likely effect of updated export controls on the nation’s AI efforts. The two pay particular attention to the different AI development strategies being deployed by the U.S. and China and how those differences reflect the AI priorities of the respective nations.

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From May 11, 2021: David Ignatius, a columnist for the Washington Post, recently ran a lengthy column about the machinations of Kash Patel in the executive branch during the presidential transition. Patel, a former staffer for Devin Nunes, held a variety of positions in the months before Donald Trump left office, and Donald Trump considered him for a variety of other positions. It's a remarkable story that raises a whole series of questions that Jack Goldsmith has been asking on Lawfare for some time. Benjamin Wittes sat down with Ignatius and Goldsmith to discuss the article. What was Patel up to in the final days of the Trump administration? What does it say about the way the executive branch functioned under Donald Trump? And what does it say about the activities of the deep state?

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