The Lawfare Podcast

On Tuesday, Jan. 9, the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals is set to hear oral argument in United States v. Trump. Trump, indicted in D.C. for alleged crimes related to election interference, is appealing the trial court’s denial of his motion to dismiss based on presidential immunity and constitutional grounds.

Ahead of the hearing, we gathered an all-star team to discuss the merits of Trump’s appeal and how the D.C. Circuit might rule. Lawfare Legal Fellow and Courts Correspondent Anna Bower sat down with Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes, Lawfare Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic; Stanton Jones, counsel for American Oversight, which has filed a fascinating amicus brief that questions whether the appeals court has jurisdiction to decide the case in the first place; and Matthew Seligman, counsel for a group of former Republican officials who have filed an amicus brief in opposition to Trump’s claim of immunity. Matthew is also the co-author of a forthcoming book on presidential elections called, “How to Steal a Presidential Election.”

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This week on Rational Security, Quinta and Scott were joined by Lawfare Legal Fellow Anna Bower to talk through the week’s big national security news, including:

• “Hamas, No Más.” A senior Hamas official was recently killed in an attack in Beirut, in what many believe was an operation by Israel—a country whose leaders have pledged to target Hamas’s leaders wherever they might be, though it has not formally acknowledged involvement in this particular attack. But pursuing such action across a border that is already on the edge of becoming a second front in the Gaza conflict has observers nervous. How significant is this operation? Does it risk regional escalation?
• “Bad for the Immune System.” Just before the holiday, the Supreme Court rejected special counsel Jack Smith’s petition for it to expedite consideration of former President Trump’s claim of immunity to criminal charges. And in the week that’s passed, briefing is already underway—including an argument by an amicus asserting that appeal shouldn’t be allowed at all. What hangs on this case? And how do the courts seem poised to address it?
• “The Unprincipled Agent Problem.” The Justice Department has leveled additional charges against Sen. Robert Menendez and his wife alleging additional illegal actions in support of Qatar, including some in violation of the Foreign Agents Registration Act. Meanwhile, several associates of former President Trump have faced similar charges for alleged work for the same government. What should we make of these powerful public officials and their associates doing work for foreign governments? And is FARA the right tool to address it?

For object lessons, Quinta continued to suck up to the estate of Roberto Bolano by endorsing his book “The Savage Detectives.” Scott spilled the beans on one of Denver’s lovely speakeasies, B&GC. And Anna urged folks to try out a Tarot Card reading for the New Year—advice Fox News appears to have taken on former President Trump’s behalf.

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It's another episode of “Trump's Trials and Tribulations,” recorded on January 4 in front of a live audience on YouTube and Zoom. Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Legal Fellow Anna Bower and Lawfare Senior Editor Roger Parloff to discuss all of the Section 3 litigation happening across the country from Colorado to Maine. They talked about where the D.C. case stands and whether the Jan. 6 trial will start on March 4. And they took questions from a live audience.

This is a live conversation that happens online every Thursday at 4:00pm Eastern Time. If you would like to come join and ask a question, be sure to visit Lawfare’s Patreon account and become a Material Supporter.

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From December 11, 2018: Last week, Benjamin Wittes sat down with Gregory Johnsen, a former member of the U.N. Security Council Panel of Experts on Yemen and the author of the book "The Last Refuge: Yemen, Al-Qaeda, and America’s War in Arabia," to do a deep dive on the conflict in Yemen: its origins; its current state; and the role Iran, Saudi Arabia, and the United States have played and are likely to play moving forward. Joining Ben and Greg was Daniel Byman, senior fellow at the Brookings Institution’s Center for Middle East Policy and Lawfare’s own Foreign Policy Editor.

After Ben and Dan’s conversation with Greg, Brookings Fellow Molly Reynolds and Lawfare's Scott R. Anderson sat down for a conversation about Yemen-related legislation that is currently churning on Capitol Hill, and what it may mean for the future of U.S. involvement in the conflict there.

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Last month, at COP28 in Dubai, the Republic of the Marshall Islands unveiled its sweeping national climate adaptation plan, the multi-year product of government officials interviewing thousands of Marshallese residents across the country’s dozens of coral atolls. 

The plan is ambitious and groundbreaking because it has to be. As John Silk, foreign minister of the Marshall Islands, said in September, “We call it our national adaptation plan, but it is really our survival plan.”

Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien sat down with Jake Bittle, a staff writer at Grist who covers climate impacts and adaptation and the author of a recent book about climate migration called “The Great Displacement,” about this very plan, which Jake obtained ahead of the annual climate conference. They discussed what makes this particular climate adaptation plan revolutionary, the thorny geopolitics of climate financing, and the unimaginable, unquantifiable loss that might occur should the worst case scenarios come to fruition for the Marshallese. But they also talked about why, despite its dire warnings and existential subject matter, the plan’s creators ultimately see it as an optimistic document. 

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From the protests in Brazil initially focused on bus fares to the protests in Hong Kong seeking to stop an extradition bill to the protests across the Middle East now collectively referred to as the "Arab Spring," the political and economic mass demonstrations from 2010 to 2020 made it a decade of public protest like no other. Yet the vast majority of these efforts failed to bring about their desired changes--and many of them actually led to the opposite of what they wanted. Vincent Bevins, author of the new book If We Burn: The Mass Protest Decade and the Missing Revolution, has chronicled this decade with stories from his on-the-ground reporting and extensive interviews with activists in ten countries around the globe.

David Priess spoke with Vincent about why mass protests during this decade so often fell short of their objectives, the principle of horizontalism, the role of social media in mobilization and action, and other themes as they relate to the mass protests in Brazil, Turkey, Hong Kong, Tunisia, Egypt, Bahrain, Syria, South Korea, and other countries.

Among the works mentioned in this episode:

The book If We Burn: The Mass Protest Decade and the Missing Revolution by Vincent Bevins

The movie The Candidate

The book From Mobilization to Revolution by Charles Tilly

The book Minor Detail by Adania Shibli

The book Bourdieu's Secret Admirer in the Caucasus by Georgi Derluguian

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Noam Osband and Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

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The conflict between Israel and Hamas is provoking heated debates about which side is in the right. Each accuses the other of things like war crimes. Oftentimes, they’re expressing a political or moral judgment—but the fact is, these are also legal terms.

So for this discussion, we’re going to step back from the debates and try to take a dispassionate look at the law that applies here—international humanitarian law, or IHL.

To do that, Lawfare Executive Editor Natalie Orpett sat down with Gabor Rona, who previously served as the legal adviser for the International Committee for the Red Cross. They talked about what IHL has to say about the most heated debates of this conflict, including the high number of civilian casualties in Gaza and Hamas’s use of human shields. They talked about the gaps in the law. And they talked about whether the law even matters here. 

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In May 2023, Montana passed a new law that would ban the use of TikTok within the state starting on January 1, 2024. But as of today, TikTok is still legal in the state of Montana—thanks to a preliminary injunction issued by a federal district judge, who found that the Montana law likely violated the First Amendment. In Texas, meanwhile, another federal judge recently upheld a more limited ban against the use of TikTok on state-owned devices. What should we make of these rulings, and how should we understand the legal status of efforts to ban TikTok?

We’ve discussed the question of TikTok bans and the First Amendment before on the Lawfare Podcast, when Lawfare Senior Editor Alan Rozenshtein and Matt Perault, Director of the Center on Technology Policy at UNC-Chapel Hill, sat down with Ramya Krishnan, a staff attorney at the Knight First Amendment Institute at Columbia University, and Mary-Rose Papandrea, the Samuel Ashe Distinguished Professor of Constitutional Law at the University of North Carolina School of Law. In light of the Montana and Texas rulings, Matt and Lawfare Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic decided to bring the gang back together and talk about where the TikTok bans stand with Ramya and Mary-Rose, on this episode of Arbiters of Truth, our series on the information ecosystem.

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Welcome to our annual “Ask Us Anything” episode, a hallowed Lawfare tradition. Every news alert in 2023 seemed to bring new questions. But fear not, because Lawfare has answers. Lawfare senior editors answered listener-submitted questions on the Israel-Gaza War, military aid to Ukraine, the Trump trials, gag orders against the former president, the presidential pardon ability, violence against elected officials, efforts to combat corruption, and more. What a year! 

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From September 27, 2014: A few weeks ago, Benjamin Wittes began listening to a podcast called Hardcore History, which is the brainchild of a fellow named Dan Carlin. Carlin was doing a series of episodes on World War I, and Hardcore History is—let's just say—a different sort of podcast. The episodes are very long, very involved, and to Ben at least, completely riveting. Ben can't recommend it highly enough. Carlin, a former radio talk show host, also runs a podcast called Common Sense, which focuses on contemporary political issues and features Carlin's eclectic political views—many of which Ben disagrees with intensely. Literally millions of people are downloading Carlin's lectures on World War I and other major events in mostly military history. Ben caught up with Carlin this week to discuss the World War I series, Hardcore History more generally, and his views on matters surveillance, ISIS, and overseas intervention.

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This week on Rational Security, Quinta and Scott rang in the New Year with co-host emeritus Benjamin Wittes by discussing some listener-submitted topics, including:

• What does the AUKUS deal mean for the Five Eyes intelligence relationship?
• How can courts enforce a gag order against former President Trump?
• What would a President Nikki Haley mean for the Republican Party’s foreign policy?
• Which is better, wizards or fighters?
• Could anything stop former President Trump from appointing a cabinet of loyalists if elected back into the White House?
• How is misinformation impacting public understandings of the Gaza conflict?
• What advice would you give to folks beginning law school—and those married to them?
• Could we just do away with hard printouts of classified information altogether?
• How will China’s economic and demographic challenges impact its decision-making on Taiwan?
• What does Prighozin’s death mean for Wagner in Africa?
• What was your most (or least) favorite media of the year?

As for object lessons, they shared several sent in by listeners, including:

• The video game Pentiment, a murder mystery set in Renaissance Bavaria;
• The book “Palestine 1936: The Great Revolt and the Roots of Middle East Conflict” by Oren Kessler;
• The “anti-reactionary conservative news site” The Dispatch, including its podcasts Advisory Opinions, The Remnant, and The Dispatch Podcast;
• The book “Three Dangerous Men” by Seth Jones, examining military leaders in China, Iran, and Russia;
• The book “Killers of the Flower Moon” by David Grann (but not the movie);
• The podcast “The Prince” about the rise of Xi Jinping (along with The Economist’s other phenomenal podcast work);
• The book “Listen Liberal: Or, What Ever Happened to the Party of the People” by Thomas Frank;
• The new book “For the People, For the Country” by John Ragosta, a political biography of Patrick Henry;
• And LinkedIn as the hot new social networking site!

Thank you to everyone for listening to Rational Security and supporting Lawfare throughout the year. We hope you enjoy a Happy New Year, and we will be back in your feeds in 2024!

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From February 9, 2019: From the increasing development of autonomous weapons systems to the expansion of the traditional battlefield to cyber and outer space, the evolution of warfare invites ethical and legal questions about what the future holds. In November 2018, Arnold & Porter's Veterans and Affiliates Leadership Organization hosted a panel discussion to explain what warfare will be like for the military veterans of the future.

Former Air Force and Army general counsel and current Arnold & Porter partner Chuck Blanchard moderated a conversation with American University law professor Ken Anderson, Emory law professor Laurie Blank, and Jamie Morin, vice president of Defense System Operations at The Aerospace Corporation and a director of the Center for Space Policy and Strategy.

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Former President Trump’s prosecution for mishandling classified documents at his Mar-a-Lago estate has brought an old law back to the front pages—the Espionage Act.

Enacted more than a century ago, parts of that law allowing for the prosecution of those who mishandle or unduly disclose sensitive national security information, have helped provide the legal infrastructure for the modern classification system used to protect our country's most important secrets. And by some accounts, to limit debate over some of its most controversial policies.

In his new book, “State of Silence,” George Mason University History Professor Sam Lebovic provides a fast-paced and eminently readable account of the Espionage Act, from its early-20th-century origins, through the various twists and turns that have led it to be applied to government leakers and former presidents alike. Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with Lebovic to discuss the unlikely evolution of the Espionage Act, the role that it has come to play in our national security system, and how it might be changed to better reflect our democratic values.

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This week, we're taking time off for the holidays, so we reached into the Chatter archives for one of our favorites.

In this episode from January 13, 2022, Shane Harris and David Priess teamed up to talk with John Sipher, a former senior intelligence officer who has gone Hollywood. With his partners at Spycraft Entertainment, John is bringing compelling and, yes, accurate stories about espionage to the screen. Before working in the entertainment industry, he spent 28 years in the CIA, where he served multiple overseas tours as a chief of station. Shane, David, and John talked about their favorite spy movies, the fine line between the espionage and action-adventure genres, and the kinds of stories they’d like to see more of.  

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo, with engineering assistance from Ian Enright. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

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Between 1865 and 1872, the first iteration of the Ku Klux Klan conducted a reign of terror across the former Confederate States, harassing, intimidating, and murdering freedpeople and their white allies. As violence spread with impunity across the South, Congress, at President Ulysses S. Grant’s urging, passed three Enforcement Acts, which radically expanded the federal government's ability to protect individuals from violence when their state governments could or would not. 

Lawfare Associate Editor for Communications Anna Hickey sat down with Fergus Bordewich, author of “Klan War: Ulysses S. Grant and the Battle to Save Reconstruction,” to discuss how the Grant administration fought the first domestic terrorist organization the federal government had ever faced. They also talked about the political terrorism conducted by the Klan in that era and what we can learn from that violent period of American history.

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The Supreme Court last month heard oral arguments in United States v. Rahimi, in which the Court will decide the constitutionality of a federal law that criminalizes the possession of firearms by individuals on whom state courts have imposed domestic violence protective orders. This case came to the Court following its June 2022 ruling in New York State Rifle & Pistol Association v. Bruen. In that case, the Court determined that whether a law violates the Second Amendment depends on whether there is a “representative historical analogue” for the contemporary law. 

Amanda Tyler, the Shannon Cecil Turner Professor of Law at the University of California, Berkeley School of Law, argued in a recent article in Lawfare that the many laws disarming loyalists that existed at the time of the Founding serve as a set of “historical analogues” required by Bruen to demonstrate the constitutionality of the statute at issue in Rahimi—a claim which has been disputed by Rahimi’s lawyers. Lawfare Research Fellow Matt Gluck sat down with Tyler to discuss the Rahimi case, the nature of the Founding-era laws that stripped loyalists of their firearms, whether loyalists were members of the American political community, why that question matters for the Court’s ruling in Rahimi, and more.

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The Supreme Court during World War II issued some of the most notorious opinions in its history, including the Japanese exclusion case, Korematsu v. United States, and the Nazi saboteur military commission case, Ex parte Quirin. For a fresh take on these and related cases and a broader perspective on the Supreme Court during World War II, Jack Goldsmith sat down with Cliff Sloan, a professor at Georgetown Law Center and a former Special Envoy for Guantanamo Closure, to discuss his new book, which is called “The Court at War: FDR, His Justices, and the World They Made.”  

They discussed how the Court's decisions during World War II were informed by the very close personal bonds of affection that most of the justices had with President Roosevelt and by the justices’ intimate attachment to and involvement with the war effort. They also discussed the fascinating internal deliberations in Korematsu, Quirin, and other momentous cases, and the puzzle of why the same court that issued these decisions also, during the same period, issued famous rights-expanding decisions in the areas of reproductive freedom, voting rights, and freedom of speech.

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This week on Rational Security, Quinta and Scott were joined by Lawfare Executive Editor Natalie Orpett and Cyber Fellow Eugenia Lostri to talk through the big national security news waking us up from our long winter’s nap this week, including:

• “Rocky Mountain, Bye.” Colorado’s Supreme Court has bid goodbye to former President Donald Trump’s 2024 candidacy (for now, at least), holding in a 4-3 ruling that he is disqualified as a candidate by virtue of Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. Will this ruling hold? And where will it go from here?
• “Houthis to Sea, so Rudely, a Wop Bop a Loo Bop a Wop Bam Boom.” Attacks by Yemen-based (and Iran-backed) Houthi rebels have led major shippers to avoid the Red Sea, dealing a serious blow to global commerce. But the United States and a coalition of allies has announced a new maritime effort—the (perhaps too) aptly named Operation Prosperity Guardian—to keep trade flowing. What will this military operation look like? And what will it mean for the global economy?
• “Not So Bueno(s) Aires?” Argentina has a new president in the form of eccentric populist economist and literal dogfather Javier Milei. What does his election mean for the future of the country? We have a live dispatch from Buenos Aires to talk it over.

For object lessons, Quinta recommended Jennifer Egan’s 2022 classic “A Visit From the Goon Squad” and her latest “The Candy House.” Scott shared his preferred recipe for mulled wine and the secret ingredient: star anise. Natalie shared a wealth of new materials celebrating civil rights leader Bayard Rustin, including a new film Rustin, as well as a recent profile in The New Yorker. And Eugenia gave the people what they want with her endorsement of the Dragon Age series of games.

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It's part two of our Lawfare year-end event. Yesterday, we brought you the headliner conversation with Adam Kinzinger. Today, it's three panels of Lawfare insiders talking about the year to come and the year that's passed. We did a panel on democracy, the Trump trials, and related matters. We did a panel on cybersecurity, cyber defense, and AI. And of course, we did a panel on foreign policy and the various crises that are overtaking American foreign policy.

You can watch a video version of their conversation here.

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It's another episode of “Trump's Trials and Tribulations,” this one recorded on December 21 in front of a live audience on YouTube and Zoom. This week, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Legal Fellow Anna Bower and special guest Anthony Michael Kreis from the Georgia State University College of Law.

They talked about the 11th Circuit's denial of Mark Meadows’s removal request in Fulton County, about why the order may have worrisome secondary effects, and of course, about that decision from the Colorado Supreme Court blocking Trump from the 2024 Republican primary ballot. 

This is a live conversation that happens online every Thursday at 4:00pm Eastern Time. If you would like to come join and ask a question, be sure to visit Lawfare’s Patreon account and become a Material Supporter.

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The other day before a live audience, we had our Lawfare year-end extravaganza. It was two hours long, so we've broken it up for purposes of the podcast. In this episode, you'll hear Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes interview Adam Kinzinger, former representative and member of the Jan. 6 committee, who headlined the event. They talked about the big national security stories of 2023, both domestically and abroad. They talked about what to expect in 2024, and how the international stories are linked to American domestic politics and dysfunction. 

You can watch a video version of their conversation here.

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Secure by Design means different things to different people. As part of Lawfare’s ongoing project to understand what Secure by Design might mean in practice, we are trying to identify the open questions—areas where research or inquiry might help our collective understanding of the concept and how it might work. Lawfare Contributing Editor Paul Rosenzweig sat down with three Senior Advisers to CISA—Lauren Zabierek, Jack Cable, and Bob Lord—who work on the cutting edge of SbD design and implementation, to get their thoughts on research that would be of ongoing value to their efforts to define an SbD standard.

You can watch a video version of their conversation here.

For more information, including the resources mentioned in this episode:

• CISA, U.S. and International Partners Announce Updated Secure by Design Principles Joint Guide | CISA
• CISA, NSA, FBI and International Cybersecurity Authorities Publish Guide on The Case for Memory Safe Roadmaps | CISA
• Blog: The Next Chapter of Secure by Design | CISA
• Expanded Secure by Design Publication: Secure-by-Design | CISA
• White Paper: https://www.cisa.gov/resources-tools/resources/secure-by-design (English and Spanish versions available)
• Blog on Memory Safety: The Urgent Need for Memory Safety in Software Products | CISA
• Applying Secure By Design to events : Applying “Secure By Design” Thinking to Events in the News | CISA
• RFI on secure software attestation form: CISA Requests Comment on Draft Secure Software Development Attestation Form | CISA
• Director Jen Easterly on updated Secure by Design in Singapore (start 2:12): SICW Opening Ceremony & SICW High-Panels - Opening Plenary - YouTube
• Rosenzweig on Auto/Cyber Liability: https://tcg-website-prod.azurewebsites.net/the-evolving-landscape-of-cybersecurity-liability/
• Unsafe At Any Speed: CISA's Plan to Foster Tech Ecosystem Security (youtube.com)

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Modern representative democracy was born in darkness. Transparency in representative bodies can spur unintended consequences for freedom, while secrecy in those bodies can lead to optimal outcomes for the public.

These are uncomfortable truths that emerge from the history of the US and French revolutionary experiences. Many of our governance challenges today, from malign misinformation to persistent leaks to skepticism toward authority, derive in part from the fact that fundamental issues about how to manage openness in a representative deomcracy remain unresolved.

David Priess chatted with Katlyn Carter, assistant professor of history at Notre Dame and author of the new book Democracy in Darkness: Secrecy and Transparency in the Age of Revolutions, about the concepts of reflective representation and insulated representation, how to understand and research the will of the people, the Continental Congress's secrecy, the closed-door policy of the Constitutional Convention, the consequences of its secrecy for the doctrine of originalism, the crucial cases of the Jay Treaty and the Alien and Sedition Acts, James Madison's evolving views about representation and openness, the difficult realization that open dialogue and debate do not always lead to truth, and Thomas Jefferson's complicated legacy.

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

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In an end-of-the-day ruling on Tuesday, the Colorado Supreme Court struck Donald Trump from the Republican primary ballot on grounds that he was disqualified for the presidency as a result of Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. The decision now appears to be fast-tracked to Supreme Court consideration that could obliterate it or make it apply nationally. 

To go over all the twists and turns, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editor Roger Parloff and Gerard Magliocca, a professor at the University of Indiana, who wrote a key law review article on Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. They talked about the Colorado decision—where it's strong, and where it's less strong. They talked about how this is going to land at the Supreme Court—which parts the justices are likely to accept, and which parts they're going to pick apart. They talked about the politics of it all, and they talked about what it means to engage in insurrection.

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In 2021, the Wall Street Journal published a monster scoop: a series of articles about Facebook’s inner workings, which showed that employees within the famously secretive company had raised alarms about potential harms caused by Facebook’s products. Now, Jeff Horwitz, the reporter behind that scoop, has a new book out, titled “Broken Code”—which dives even deeper into the documents he uncovered from within the company. He’s one of the most rigorous reporters covering Facebook, now known as Meta.

On this episode of Arbiters of Truth, our series on the information ecosystem Lawfare Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic sat down with Jeff along with Matt Perault, the Director of the Center on Technology Policy at UNC-Chapel Hill—and also someone with close knowledge of Meta from his own time working at the company. They discussed Jeff’s reporting and debated what his findings tell us about how Meta functions as a company and how best to understand its responsibilities for harms traced back to its products.

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Bryan Vorndran is Assistant Director of the FBI's Cyber Division, a position he's held since around March 2021. Prior to that, he was the special agent in charge in New Orleans, and he's worked in Afghanistan and on the Joint Terrorism Task Force at the Washington Field Office.

David Kris, Lawfare contributor and former Assistant Attorney General for the National Security Division, and Bryan Cunningham, Lawfare contributor and Executive Director of the University of California, Irvine’s Cybersecurity Policy & Research Institute, sat down with Bryan to talk about his career trajectory, the FBI's top cyber challenges, the Bureau's relationships with other agencies and private sector entities, and the challenges posed by the People's Republic of China. 

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The conflict in Gaza may be approaching a turning point. An increasingly frustrated Biden administration has reportedly told Israeli officials that the military campaign needs to wind up within weeks, while even some Israeli officials have suggested that Hamas is on the verge of defeat. But as the physical and human devastation in Gaza continues to mount, the question of what comes after the conflict ends looms just over the horizon, without anyone offering a clear answer. 

To talk through the state of the conflict and what might come next, Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with Joel Braunold, the Managing Director of the S. Daniel Abraham Center for Middle East Peace—someone who has followed the Israeli-Palestinian conflict closely for decades, and who has often played a key supporting role in related negotiations. They talked about the state of Israel’s military campaign, how it is impacting Israeli and Palestinian politics, and the challenges of reaching a new status quo that stands any chance of meeting the demands of those parties who are most directly affected. 

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This week on Rational Security, Quinta and Scott were joined by Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien to talk through the week’s big national security news, including:

• “You’ll Shoot Your Five Eyes Out with a Bibi Gun.” From Ukraine to Gaza, some of the biggest controversies surrounding U.S. foreign policy hinge on the assistance—including weapons and intelligence—that the United States provides to its allies. What makes these relationships so complicated? 
• “The Sock-It Docket.” Late last week, Special Counsel Jack Smith executed a power move, bringing former President Trump’s appeal of the denial of his claim of absolute presidential immunity directly to the Supreme Court — through what is often called the “rocket docket”—and citing precedents from the Nixon era suggesting the Supreme Court should resolve the issue within weeks. What does this move tell us—and how likely is Smith to win his case?
• “Netanya-who?” President Biden’s bear hug of the Israeli prime minister may be loosening, as he has reportedly told donors that Netanyahu must go if Israel is to retain international support. How serious a move is this? And what might it mean for the conflict in Gaza?

For object lessons, Quinta continued to show off her bookshelf by recommending Jeff Horwitz’s “Broken Code.” Scott flagged for listeners that “White Christmas” is, in fact, the best holiday movie and no one should try to argue otherwise. And Tyler endorsed Julie Byrne’s album from earlier this year, “The Greater Wings.”

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It's another edition of “Trump’s Trials and Tribulations,” recorded on Thursday before a live audience of Lawfare Material Supporters. This week, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editor Roger Parloff, Lawfare Legal Fellow Anna Bower, and special guest Steve Vladeck from the University of Texas School of Law. They discussed Jack Smith's petition to the Supreme Court for a writ of certiorari “before judgment” on the question of presidential immunity. They talked about the Court's decision to weigh in on Fischer v. United States and the potential impact on Trump's criminal cases and the other Jan. 6 cases that involved the same statute. They talked about whether Trump's trial in D.C. will be delayed by the Supreme Court's consideration of the immunity question. They talked about the status of the civil suit by Georgia election workers against Rudy Giuliani, and they checked in to see what is new in Fulton County. 

This is a live conversation that happens online every Thursday at 4:00pm Eastern Time. If you would like to come join and ask a question, be sure to visit Lawfare’s Patreon account and become a Material Supporter.

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From July 29, 2017: On December 31, 2017, Section 702 of the FISA Amendments Act will sunset. While U.S. officials insist that the provision authorizes critical intelligence gathering, it remains an open question whether Congress will reauthorize the law as it exists, pass it with amendments, or allow it to lapse altogether. In this week's podcast, Susan Hennessey sits down with FBI General Counsel Jim Baker and the Bureau's Executive Assistant Director of the National Security Branch Carl Ghattas to discuss the FBI's perspective on the legal and operational elements of Section 702.

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According to the resolution signed at the end of the 28th meeting of the Conference of the Parties to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC), or COP28 for short, fossil fuels have finally been sentenced to a slow and painful death. This year’s global climate summit, held in the United Arab Emirates, ended with an overtime session that resulted with the nations agreeing to transition away from fossil fuels for the first time in COP history. But what does this really mean, and is the language as strong as it could have been? Lawfare Associate Editor Hyemin Han talked to Director of the Center for Climate and Security and Lawfare Contributing Editor Erin Sikorsky about the final deal language, what else happened at COP28, and the geopolitical implications of the clean energy transition. 

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In the summer of 1944, a group of artists, visual designers and sound engineers--all of them GIs--began a series of secret operations in occupied France. Their mission: to deceive German forces about the location and size of U.S. military units, using a combination of inflatable vehicles, sound recordings, and “actors” posing as officers. 

The ranks of the “Ghost Army” included future stars of the worlds of art and design, including Ellsworth Kelly, Bill Blass, Arthur Singer, Victor Dowd, Art Kane, and Jack Masey. Journalist Rick Beyer has chronicled their ingenious exploits in a book and a documentary. 

December marks the 80th anniversary of the order that created the unit, which remained secret for decades. Shane Harris talked with Beyer about its creation, its success, and the ghost army’s role in the storied history of intelligence deceptions. 

Among the works mentioned in this episode:

The Ghost Army book

https://www.chroniclebooks.com/products/ghost-army-of-world-war-ii 

The Ghost Army documentary 

https://shop.pbs.org/WC3752.html 

The Ghost Army Legacy Project 

https://ghostarmy.org/ 

Smithsonian magazine feature  

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-the-ghost-army-of-wwii-used-art-to-deceive-the-nazis-180980336/ 

The National WWII Museum 

https://www.nationalww2museum.org/visit/exhibits/traveling-exhibits/ghost-army-combat-con-artists-world-war-ii 

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Ben Saul is the Challis Professor of International Law at the University of Sydney, Australia, whose internationally recognized work has focused specifically on the intersection of human rights, terrorism, and international law. The United Nations Human Rights Council voted to appoint Saul as the newest Special Rapporteur on the promotion and protection of human rights and fundamental freedoms while countering terrorism, which has become one of the most visible and urgent special rapporteur mandates at the Human Rights Council. He began his three-year tenure, which can be extended to six years, on November 1, 2023. Lawfare Associate Editor Hyemin Han sat down with Saul for an interview about his priorities for his tenure, the intellectual frameworks and perspectives he brings to his role, and to get his perspective as Special Rapporteur on the ongoing Israel-Hamas war. 

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You may have heard of Javier Milei, Argentina’s new president, thanks to some of his eccentricities, like his five cloned dogs or his reliance on a chainsaw prop to illustrate the need to cut public expenditure. But Milei was able to harness the dissatisfaction with a system that has left the country with 150% inflation and over 40% of the population under the line of poverty. Now, the self described anarcho-capitalist libertarian will attempt to turn the economy around with shocking fiscal adjustment.

To discuss this inflection point in Argentina, Lawfare’s Fellow in Technology Policy and Law Eugenia Lostri spoke with Ana Iparraguirre, a partner at consulting firm GBAO and a frequent commentator on leading Latin American media outlets. They talked about Milei’s rise to power, if and how he can deliver on his campaign promises, and what that would even mean for the Argentinian people.

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FISA Section 702 is set to expire on Dec. 31, 2023. Last week, two bills were marked up by two different House committees—one in the House Judiciary Committee and one in the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. To talk about these very different approaches to FISA Section 702 reauthorization and reform, Lawfare Senior Editor Stephanie Pell sat down with Preston Marquis, a JD candidate at Harvard Law School and a former analyst at the Central Intelligence Agency; Molly Reynolds, Senior Editor at Lawfare; and Benjamin Wittes, Lawfare’s Editor-in-Chief. They discussed some of the key differences between these bills, the abnormal politics surrounding this reauthorization process, and an unusual floor procedure called Queen of the Hill that may be used for consideration of both of these bills.

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The Senate last week failed to move forward the national security supplemental, which includes a large package of aid for Ukraine. The holdup? Migration at the southern border and Republican insistence that the administration and Democrats will have to swallow major policy changes in order to get the Ukraine aid through. Meanwhile, the mood in Kyiv is a little down. The counteroffensive did not go as planned, the U.S. aid situation and the European commitment to Ukraine is alarming, and domestic politics are returning after a hiatus during the first couple years of the war.  

To chew over the state of Ukraine and its support from the United States, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Eric Ciaramella of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, a former CIA Ukraine analyst, and Molly Reynolds, Lawfare Senior Editor and Congressional Guru. They talked about the state of the Ukraine aid package in Congress, about whether a deal on the border is possible, about whether such a deal could pass the House, and about Ciaramella's recent trip to Kyiv and the mood there as Congress dithers.

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This week on Rational Security, co-hosts Quinta and Scott were joined by co-host emeritus Benjamin Wittes to talk over the week’s big national security news, including:

• “Stalled and Appalled.” Ukraine’s counteroffensive to try and reclaim Russia-held parts of eastern Ukraine appears to have stalled, triggering a degree of finger-pointing on both sides of the Atlantic—just as U.S. and European support for their military campaign appears to be waning. What does this mean for the next stage of this conflict?
• “Parting the Red Sea.” Since the start of the war in Gaza, U.S. and allied diplomatic and military presences have come under attack by Iran-backed proxies throughout the Middle East. Now the Iran-backed Houthi faction in Yemen is targeting commercial shipping in the Red Sea with purported Israeli ties. What’s motivating these actions? And how do they change the regional security picture?
• “One Day Soon, I’m Gonna Tell My Goons, About the Blassingame.” Former President Donald Trump suffered two big legal losses in cases relating to Jan. 6 this past week, as both the D.C. Circuit in the civil suit against him and the trial court in his criminal prosecution held that he was not immune for prosecution by virtue of being the president. What will these decisions mean moving forward on the civil and criminal fronts?

For object lessons, Quinta shared an amazing development in the Menendez case. Scott pulled a musical hat-trick and endorsed the newish venue The Atlantis, the phenomenal Lydia Loveless (who he just saw there), and (since it is December) Ingrid Michaelson’s holiday album Songs for the Season—and specifically the sob-inducingly melancholy song, “Happy, Happy Christmas.” And Ben plugged the Romanian Madrigal Choir show he attended at the National Cathedral while also logrolling for the new (non-Lawfare) podcast feature he rolled out on his substack Dog Shirt Daily and related podcast “Read with Me,” which features readings of major filings and opinions in the Trump trials. 

Also, we are beginning preparations for our end-of-year listener-submitted episode! If you have a topic you want us to cover, a question you want us to answer, or an object lesson you want to share, send it along to us at rationalsecurity@lawfaremedia.org no later than December 18!

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It's another edition of “Trump’s Trials and Tribulations,” recorded on Thursday before a live audience of Lawfare Material Supporters. Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes, Senior Editor Roger Parloff, and Legal Fellow Anna Bower to discuss a range of matters, from Judge Chutkan’s denial of Trump's motions to dismiss his D.C. criminal case, to Trump's filing seeking to stay the D.C. case in its entirety, the lack of movement in the D.C. Circuit from its gag order, and where the various 14th Amendment Section 3 suits seeking to ban Trump from the 2024 ballot stand around the country. They also dug into updates from Fulton County and talked about what happened in particular at the six-hour hearing on Dec. 1 that has gotten surprisingly little attention. 

This is a live conversation that happens online every Thursday at 4:00pm Eastern Time. If you would like to come join and ask a question, be sure to visit Lawfare’s Patreon account and become a Material Supporter.

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From November 6, 2013: On October 25, 2013, the Hoover Institution held a day-long media colloquium out at Stanford University for a first-rate group of journalists focused on national security legal issues and the work of Hoover’s Jean Perkins Task Force on National Security and Law. The first session of the day, Ben’s talk on Speaking the Law, ran as episode of the podcast on Sunday. The second session, the subject of this episode, was a talk by Matt and Ken about autonomous weapons and the calls for a preemptive ban in international law on so-called "killer robots." The session has been edited both for length and because not all of the journalists consented to having their remarks made public.

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Last week, former Secretary of State and National Security Adviser Henry Kissinger passed away. To assess his legacy, Jack Goldsmith sat down with Graham Allison, the Douglas Dillon Professor of Government at Harvard University. 

Allison knew Kissinger well. He first met Kissinger in 1965 when he was a student in Kissinger's class at Harvard. And Allison worked with Kissinger for decades, right up until the end of Kissinger's life, when he and Kissinger coauthored an essay published in October on arms control for artificial intelligence, perhaps Kissinger's last essay. 

Allison and Goldsmith discussed Kissinger's accomplishments as a statesman, his cast of mind and long intellectual productivity, his engagement with history as a guide to international diplomacy, and his particular brand of realism. They also discussed Kissinger's failures and mistakes and what Kissinger was most worried about at the end of his life.

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World War I was a seminal event for American national security and foreign policy, as the United States deployed nearly two million soldiers and sailors to Europe and engaged in the most intense overseas combat in its history up to that point. Yet the development of modern American intelligence just before and during the war, and even the magnitude of the war itself, have been largely forgotten by the US public.

David Priess spoke with historian and former intelligence officer Mark Stout, author of the new book World War I and the Foundations of American Intelligence, about early steps toward peacetime US military intelligence in the 1880s and 1890s, the importance of Arthur Wagner and his late 19th century textbook about information collection, the intelligence impact on and from the Spanish-American War and the Philippine insurgency, how the war in Europe spurred intelligence advances in the mid-1910s, German sabotage in the United States, how General John Pershing and the American Expeditionary Forces used intelligence in combat, the growth of domestic intelligence during the war, the scholarly group gathered by President Woodrow Wilson called "The Inquiry," and why World War I generally fails to resonate with Amercians today.

Among the works mentioned in this episode:

The book World War I and the Foundations of American Intelligence by Mark Stout

The book Classified: Secrecy and the State in Modern Britain by Christopher Moran

The movie Gone with the Wind (1939)

The book Wasteland: The Great War and the Origins of Modern Horror by W. Scott Poole

The Chatter podcast episode The JFK Assassination and Conspiracy Culture with Gerald Posner

The book Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy by John le Carré

The movie Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy (2011)

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Megan Nadolski and Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

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Watching the footage of the attack on the U.S. Capitol on the morning of Jan. 6, 2021, Bradley Onishi thought to himself, “If I hadn’t left evangelicalism, would I have been there?” In his book entitled, “Preparing for War: The Extremist History of White Christian Nationalism and What Comes Next,” Onishi offers a sobering historical account of the origins and development of White Christian nationalism in the United States and its offshoots. From the unique perspective of a former insider, Onishi explains how the decades-long campaign of White Christian nationalism in the United States culminated in the Jan. 6 attack. 

Lawfare Associate Editor Katherine Pompilio sat down with Onishi—a scholar of religion and co-host of the Straight White American Jesus Podcast—to discuss his personal experience as a former White Christian nationalist and how it informed his writing of the book. They also discussed culture wars and the myth of the Christian nation, the elections of Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan, Jan. 6 rioters and religious symbols at the riot, how Donald Trump fits into all of this, and more. 

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A little over a month ago, President Biden issued a sweeping executive order on artificial intelligence (AI) covering a broad set of AI issues, such as privacy, transparency, the development of biological weapons, and many more. The order hands out expansive directives to several U.S. government agencies and private industry, which the Biden administration hopes will help the U.S. lead the globe in AI development in a safe and sustainable manner. 

Lawfare Research Fellow Matt Gluck sat down with Bill Wright, Global Head of Government Affairs at Elastic—a leading search company—to discuss, from the perspective of an industry insider, what the executive order means for tech companies that rely on AI and the relationship between tech companies and the U.S. government. Is collaboration among companies in the competitive AI space possible? Which aspects of the order could help smaller companies keep up? Will the order let companies dictate their processes for complying with the order’s broad objectives?

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On Friday, two courts weighed in on the question of presidential immunity. First, Judge Chutkan of the DC District Court ruled that Trump is not immune from Special Counsel Jack Smith’s criminal prosecution for his conduct on Jan. 6. In the second, the DC Circuit Court ruled that Trump is not immune from a civil suit brought by members of Congress and Capitol Police officers, also relating to his conduct on Jan. 6.

To talk through the decisions, Lawfare Executive Editor Natalie Orpett sat down with Lawfare Senior Editors Quinta Jurecic and Roger Parloff along with Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes. They discussed the nuances of both opinions, how the analysis is consistent and how it is different, and what each case implies about the other—and what comes next.

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Is the Fourth Amendment doing any work anymore? In a forthcoming article entitled “Government Purchases of Private Data,” Matthew Tokson, a professor at the University of Utah S.J. Quinney College of Law, details how, in recent years, federal and state agencies have begun to purchase location information and other consumer data, as government attorneys have mostly concluded that purchasing data is a valid way to bypass Fourth Amendment restrictions. 

Lawfare Senior Editor Stephanie Pell sat down with Matthew to discuss this article, where he attempts to bring this constitutional evasion to light. They talked about the two main arguments offered for why the purchase of private data does not violate the Fourth Amendment, his responses to these arguments, and the recommendations he makes to courts, legislators, and government agencies to address the Fourth Amendment and privacy concerns surrounding government purchases of private data.

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This week on Rational Security, a contentedly full post-Thanksgiving Scott and Quinta sat down with two Lawfare colleagues—Senior Editor and Brookings Institution Senior Fellow Molly Reynolds and Cyber Fellow Eugenia Lostri—to talk through the week’s big national security news stories, including:

• “Showdown with an Only O.K. Rationale.” The House and Senate are preparing for a showdown over national security priorities, with assistance for Ukraine (and Israel and border security) hanging in the balance. Where does the debate seem likely to go from here—and what will the global ramifications be?
• “Bringing Down the @SamA.” OpenAI, the non-profit(?) behind ChatGPT, has had a chaotic few weeks, with its board ousting CEO Sam Altman on the apparent grounds that he was not taking AI safety concerns seriously enough, only for the vast majority of organization’s employees to threaten to resign unless he was brought back—a step the board took, just before most of its members resigned. What do these events tell us about the state of the AI industry?
• “Carpe Ceasefire.” A fragile pause in hostilities has emerged centered on the exchange of Israeli hostages held by Hamas for imprisoned Palestinians—momentum the Biden administration is reportedly hoping to build on. Yet calls for a permanent ceasefire continue amidst mounting civilian casualties and humanitarian needs, and there remains no clear plan for a post-war Gaza. How long will the pause last? What happens when hostilities resume?

For object lessons, Quinta recommended the 1990s classic “Distant Star” by Robert Bolaño. Scott gave his Thanksgiving gold star to Eric Kim’s creamy mac and cheese recipe. Molly leaned into her love for local NPR affiliates and recommended WGBH’s podcast “The Big Dig,” focusing on Boston’s legendary highway project. And secret gamer nerd Eugenia recommended a compelling video game that even parents of toddlers have time to tackle, What Remains of Edith Finch.

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It's another edition of “Trump’s Trials and Tribulations,” recorded on Thursday before a live audience of Lawfare Material Supporters. Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editor Roger Parloff, Lawfare Legal Fellow Anna Bower, and special guest Kyle Cheney of Politico, to talk about Scott Perry's text messages that were newly revealed in a filing in D.C. District Court, about happenings with New York gag orders and D.C. gag orders, about Section 3 of the 14th Amendment cases, and about Anna's story about the Georgia Bureau of Investigation’s report in Coffee County and how much it sucked. 

This is a live conversation that happens online every Thursday at 4:00pm Eastern Time. If you would like to come join and ask a question, be sure to visit Lawfare’s Patreon account and become a Material Supporter.

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From September 25, 2018: The United States has become the global leader in both defense and private-sector AI. Inevitably, this has led to an environment in which adversary and ally governments alike may seek to identify and steal AI information—in other words, AI has become intelligence, and those who work in AI have become potential sources and assets. And with intelligence, comes counterintelligence.

Jim Baker, a Visiting Fellow at the Brookings Institution and former FBI General Counsel, is part-way through a series of essays for Lawfare on the links between counterintelligence and AI, two parts of which have already been published (Part I and Part II). On Monday, Jim sat down with Benjamin Wittes to discuss his work on the subject. They talked about how to understand AI as an intelligence asset, how we might protect this valuable asset against a range of threats from hostile foreign actors, and how we can protect ourselves against the threat from AI in the hands of adversaries.

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Anna Bower is a Legal Fellow at Lawfare and our Fulton County Correspondent, and has been digging into the weird events in Coffee County in the aftermath of the 2020 election. Her latest tome on the subject is entitled “What the GBI Missed in Coffee County,” and is about the Georgia state investigation, the report on which clocks in at almost 400 pages but is a great deal less impressive than it may seem at first glance.

Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Anna to talk about the GBI's investigation of the Coffee County caper. What did the GBI do? What didn't they do? Did they add any new information? They actually did—but they also left out a whole lot that any reasonable investigator would want to look at.

A video version of this conversation is available on Lawfare's YouTube channel here.

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Peter Strzok is a former United States Federal Bureau of Investigation agent. He was the Deputy Assistant Director of the FBI's Counterintelligence Division and led the investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections. He speaks with Ben Wittes about the numerous places he has called home and a career spent in counterintelligence.

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