The Lawfare Podcast

Israel’s military response to Hamas’s Oct. 7 massacre has raised deep concern from international legal observers and the general public. The IDF’s tactics have been described as “disproportionate,” and not taking sufficient care to avoid killing civilians or damaging civilian infrastructure, as the law of armed conflict requires.

When it comes to incidental casualties in particular, Mark Lattimer, Executive Director of Ceasefire Centre for Civilian Rights, recently argued on Lawfare’s pages that Israel’s tolerance for civilian deaths seems to surpass even that of the U.S. and U.K.’s in the war against ISIS. Lawfare Associate Editor Hyemin Han talked to him about the case study he used to make this point—an analysis of Israel’s decision to carry out airstrikes in the Jabalia Refugee Camp in October. They compared that to what happened in the Battle of Mosul in 2014, and then got into the bigger differences between Israel’s war against Hamas and the war against ISIS. 

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Unless you’ve been living under a rock, you’ve probably heard a great deal over the last year about generative AI and how it’s going to reshape various aspects of our society. That includes elections. With one year until the 2024 U.S. presidential election, we thought it would be a good time to step back and take a look at how generative AI might and might not make a difference when it comes to the political landscape. Luckily, Matt Perault and Scott Babwah Brennen of the UNC Center on Technology Policy have a new report out on just that subject, examining generative AI and political ads.

On this episode of Arbiters of Truth, our series on the information ecosystem, Lawfare Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic and Lawfare’s Fellow in Technology Policy and Law Eugenia Lostri sat down with Matt and Scott to talk through the potential risks and benefits of generative AI when it comes to political advertising. Which concerns are overstated, and which are worth closer attention as we move toward 2024? How should policymakers respond to new uses of this technology in the context of elections?

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Last month, following Hamas’s Oct. 7 attack on Israel, President Biden announced that his administration would ask Congress for “an unprecedented support package for Israel’s defense,” totaling $14.3 billion. Such a package would supplement the defense aid Israel already receives from the U.S. According to Jonathan Guyer in Vox, “Israel has received about $3 billion annually, adjusted for inflation, for the last 50 years, and is the largest historical recipient of US security aid.” 

But with civilian casualties in Gaza mounting, including the reported killing of thousands of Palestinian children, likely with weapons of U.S. origin, a recent article in Foreign Affairs by Brian Finucane asks, “Is Washington Responsible for What Israel Does With American Weapons?” 

To talk through that essay, Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien sat down with Brian, a Senior Adviser at the International Crisis Group and former attorney adviser in the Office of the Legal Adviser at the U.S. State Department, as well as Josh Paul, a former Director in the State Department’s Bureau of Political-Military Affairs, which oversees U.S. arms transfers, who resigned in protest over the U.S. government’s provision of weapons to Israel for use in the conflict in Gaza. They discussed the scale and process of U.S. weapons transfers, the domestic and international law that govern these transfers, and whether the U.S. is complicit and liable for war crimes committed with its weaponry. They also discussed why it would be a mistake to rely solely on the law of war to bring an end to the death and destruction in Gaza.

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Tiana Epps-Johnson is the Executive Director of the Center for Tech and Civic Life, an organization which provides technical and financial assistance to election workers nationwide. If this sounds like it should be uncontroversial, hang on to your hats, folks. It is anything but. 

After her work in 2020 to help election workers conduct the presidential election under horrendously difficult COVID conditions and with inadequate budgets, Epps-Johnson found herself the subject of lawsuits, investigations by state attorneys general, and other forms of harassment. None of these have come to anything, but it's been extremely costly for the organization.

She joined Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes and Lawfare Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic to tell the story. What does the Center for Tech and Civic Life really do? What was the nature of the attacks she faced? How much did it cost her organization to defend them, and how did she pay it? And what does it all mean for the future of safe elections in the United States?

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From November 7, 2015: Last week, George Washington University and the CIA co-hosted an event entitled Ethos and Profession of Intelligence. As part of the conference, Kenneth Wainstein moderated a conversation between CIA General Counsel Caroline Krass, Orin Kerr, and Benjamin Wittes on Bridging 20th Century Law and 21st Century Intelligence, a panel which we now present in full. What new legal questions are raised by rapidly evolving technologies and how do those questions interact with existing national security law? In response to these changes, how can the United States strike a balance between privacy, security and the economic imperatives driving innovation? The panel addresses these critical issues and more.

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From May 19, 2018: The past week saw the culmination of a major shift in U.S. policy as the United States formally opened its embassy in Jerusalem. Yet ongoing protests along the border with the Gaza Strip and the Israeli government’s harsh response have provided a sharp contrast to the hopeful rhetoric surrounding the embassy’s opening ceremony. On Friday, Lawfare senior editor Scott Anderson spoke with Khaled Elgindy, Natan Sachs, and Sarah Yerkes to sort through the headlines. 

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In the past few weeks, there have been several notable developments in lawsuits seeking to disqualify Donald Trump from the 2024 election under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. The Minnesota Supreme Court dismissed a case against Trump but invited the petitioners to refile once Trump won the GOP nomination. A court in Michigan rejected a challenge to Trump's eligibility on the grounds that Congress, not the courts, should ultimately decide. And, most recently, a Colorado trial court held that, although Trump did engage in insurrection before and during Jan. 6, Section 3 does not apply to presidents.

As these and other cases make their way through the courts, and with the potential that the Supreme Court will at some point weight in, we're bringing you another portion of a conference held last month at the University of Minnesota Law School (for a previous excerpt, see the November 1 edition of the Lawfare Podcast). This panel, focusing on the interplay between the Section 3 challenges and election law, was moderated by University of Minnesota Law School Professor Nick Bednar, and featured Professor Ned Foley of the Ohio State College of Law, Professor Derek Muller of Notre Dame Law School, and Professor Andrea Katz of Washington University School of Law.

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From October 22, 2016: This week, Samuel Moyn, Professor of Law and History at Harvard University, closed out a one-day conference on “The Next President's Fight Against Terror” at New America with a talk on “How Warfare Became Both More Humane and Harder to End.” He argues that we’ve moved toward a focus on ending war crimes and similar abuses, rather than a focus on preventing war’s outbreak in the first place. And in his view, the human rights community shares culpability for this problem. It’s an issue that will be of great consequence as the next president takes office amidst U.S. involvement in numerous ongoing military interventions across the globe. 

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Sixty years ago today in Dallas, Texas, Lee Harvey Oswald shot and killed President John Kennedy. For almost as long, various (often contradictory) conspiracy theories about that day have been circulating. Gerald Posner used overwhelming evidence and logic to dismantle these theories in his classic book Case Closed, first published in 1993 and re-issued with updates in the three decades since then.

David Priess spoke with Gerald about why some anniversaries of major events resonate more than others; the limits of memory; what drove him to first research and write about the Kennedy assassination; what actually happened on November 22, 1963; early conspiracy thinking about it; Jim Garrison's flawed investigation of Clay Shaw; Oliver Stone and his influential film JFK; speculation about the Dealey Plaza "umbrella man" and about Cuban government involvement; decades of US government document releases; new memories from a former Secret Service agent; the impact of grand conspiracy thinking on society; and more.

Among the works mentioned in this episode:

The book Case Closed by Gerald Posner

The book Reclaiming History by Vincent Bugliosi

The book Hitler's Children by Gerald Posner

The book Rush to Judgment by Mark Lane

The book Six Days in Dallas by Josiah Thompson

The movie JFK

The Lawfare Podcast episode The JFK Assassination Documents, with Gerald Posner and Mark Zaid (December 22, 2021)

The book Day of the Jackal by Fredrick Forsyth

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

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The great documentary filmmaker Errol Morris is best known for films such as “The Thin Blue Line” and “The Fog of War.” His latest film, “The Pigeon Tunnel,” is about the great espionage novelist John le Carré, whose real name is David Cornwell. 

Jack Goldsmith recently sat down with Morris to talk about “The Pigeon Tunnel.” They discussed le Carré’s complex and contradictory attitudes towards the Cold War, the influence of the traitorous British intelligence officer Kim Philby on le Carré's work, what Morris and le Carré have in common as documentarians, and how le Carré compares with Graham Greene and Joseph Conrad. Morris also reflected on his craft, including the difference between an interview and an interrogation and how he learned to interview a subject without saying anything.

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At the end of the Cold War, there was no question that the United States was the most powerful country in the world—militarily, economically, and technologically. International relations scholars call this system, where one country is more powerful than all others, a unipolar one. But most analysts now argue that America’s decline over the last two decades coupled with a simultaneous Chinese rise, has ended the United States’s predominance in international politics, and that the world is no longer unipolar.

Stephen Brooks and William Wohlforth, international relations professors at Dartmouth College, made the argument in Foreign Affairs that while it’s true that the United States’s lead at the end of the Cold War has shrunk, the U.S. remains ahead of all other countries in terms of its military, economy, and technological production. Robert Keohane, Professor Emeritus of International Affairs at Princeton, responded to Brooks and Wohlforth’s article, discussing whether polarity matters for the prevention of a conflict between the U.S. and China. 

Lawfare Research Fellow Matt Gluck sat down with Brooks, Wohlforth, and Keohane for a wide-ranging conversation about what it means for a country to be the strongest of them all, the balance of power between the U.S. and China, what the War in Ukraine reveals about Russia’s global standing, and much more. 

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Over the past few weeks, the country of Pakistan has pursued an aggressive wave of deportations targeting thousands of Afghan refugees, some of whom have been in Pakistan for generations. Many fear that this move will add to the already precarious and humanitarian situation facing Afghanistan. But the Taliban regime, for one, has reacted in a way few expected.

To talk through these refugee removals and their ramifications, Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with Madiha Afzal, a Fellow in the Foreign Policy program at the Brookings Institution. They talked about the origins of the Afghan refugee population in Pakistan, how this latest action intersects with concerns over terrorism, and where the crisis may be headed next.

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This week on Rational Security, Quinta and Scott were jointed by Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien to talk over some of the week's big national security news, including:

• “The Day After.” As the war in Gaza enters a new phase, discussions are increasingly shifting to focus on how Israel will handle a post-Hamas Gaza Strip—and what long-term impact the conflict will have on the West Bank. How is the day after this war coming into focus?
• “Not Just America’s Mayor…” New York City Mayor Eric Adams is being investigated for accepting donations from a Turkish foundation and other organizations with ties to Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, just before lobbying for the early opening of a Turkish consulate in the city. Has Adams done anything wrong? What else could this investigation be looking into?
• “Election Interference Interference Interference.” A lawsuit over the U.S. government’s engagement with social media is interfering with the FBI’s efforts to interfere with those hoping to interfere in our elections—including the upcoming presidential race in 2024. What threats does this chilling effect present? How should the Biden administration be responding?

For object lessons, Quinta recommended “The Vaster Wilds,” Lauren Groff's new adventure story exploring the experience of colonialism. Tyler endorsed Albert Brooks: Defending My Life, the new documentary about the legendary (at least among people over 30) comedian. And Scott told readers to check out “A City on Mars” by Kelly and Zach Weinersmith for a fun (if pessimistic) exploration of all the challenges facing humanity's budding efforts to expand into outer space.

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It's another episode of “Trump’s Trials and Tribulations,” the last one before Thanksgiving, when we will take a week off. Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down before a live audience of Lawfare Material Supporters with Lawfare Senior Editor Roger Parloff and Legal Fellow Anna Bower. They talked about the latest developments in Mar-a-Lago, where Judge Cannon has issued a cryptic order. They talked about the latest in the Section 3 litigation in three states: Minnesota, Colorado, and Michigan. They talked about the latest weirdness in Fulton County, where there was a confession on the stand of who released some proffer videos to the public. And they took audience questions.

This is a live conversation that happens online every Thursday at 4:00pm Eastern Time on YouTube. If you would like to come join and ask a question, be sure to visit Lawfare’s Patreon account and become a Material Supporter.

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From September 7, 2019: This summer has been a tumultuous one inside the U.S. State Department. In August, the department’s Office of the Inspector General handed down a scathing report alleging political manipulation and abusive practices inside the department’s International Organization bureau—only one of a series of similar allegations. At the same time, a number of career State Department officials ranging from assistant secretaries to the rank-and-file have resigned due to alleged complaints and disagreements with Trump administration officials and policies.

To dig into these developments and consider what they might mean for the State Department’s present and future, Scott R. Anderson spoke with reporters Colum Lynch and Robbie Gramer of Foreign Policy magazine, and Lawfare’s Margaret Taylor, who is a fellow alumnus of the State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor and former Democratic Counsel for the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

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The United States has long set restrictions on the export of certain sensitive goods and technologies, particularly to strategic rivals. But over the past several years, we have seen first the Trump and now the Biden administrations use the legal authorities behind these export controls in new and innovative ways, for purposes ranging from limiting China’s access to key emerging technologies to stymying Russia’s military effectiveness in Ukraine. The only problem is, once you impose these restrictions, you then have to enforce them—and that’s not always an easy task.

To learn more about how the Biden administration is taking on this challenge, Lawfare Contributing Editor Brandon Van Grack and Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with Matthew Axelrod, Assistant Secretary of Export Enforcement at the U.S. Department of Commerce’s Bureau of Industry and Security. They discussed how export control enforcement works; the sorts of coordination it requires with industry and foreign countries, friendly and unfriendly; and what new enforcement strategies the United States is pursuing as the use of export controls changes.

This is the latest episode of “The Regulators,” a special series Lawfare is co-producing with the law firm Morrison & Foerster, where Brandon is a partner. Each episode, Brandon and Scott sit down with some of the senior U.S. policymakers responsible for crafting and implementing the cutting edge policies that are defining our new era of economic statecraft. 

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In October 1983, Maurice Bishop, the revolutionary leader and prime minister of Grenada, was executed alongside seven others amid a power struggle in the island nation. Ever since, a mystery has persisted: What happened to their bodies? The whereabouts of Bishop’s remains is unknown, and for the past two years, Washington Post journalists have been trying to find them. 

Martine Powers hosts the new Post investigative podcast, “The Empty Grave of Comrade Bishop.” She’s been fascinated by Bishop’s story for years, and she takes listeners on a journey through his rise and untimely death. The podcast is part mystery, party history. Bishop was a dynamic, charismatic leader, and an important figure in the history of Black power and politics, his influence felt in Grenada and the United States. The Reagan administration saw Bishop as a socialist threat and worried that the Soviet Union might build a base on Grenada. Days after Bishop was killed, the United States led an invasion of the island. 

Listeners may also know Martine as the host of “Post Reports,” the news organization's daily podcast. Shane Harris and Martine have spent a lot of time together in the recording studio, but this is the first time he’s asked her the questions. They discussed her new project, how she made her way from print reporting to podcasts, and what she thinks audio journalism gives readers that traditional news reporting often can’t. 

Among the works mentioned in this episode:

• “The Empty Grave of Comrade Bishop” episode guide 
• Martine’s bio
• Bishop speaking in New York in 1983
• President Ronald Reagan speaking about Bishop and Grenada (around 14:20): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfLGDxnRH-Q 
• Excerpts of Reagan’s address following the invasion of Grenada
• Washington Post coverage of the invasion: 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1983/10/26/the-invasion-of-grenada/cc0f5e1c-9a3b-4d53-bc42-a5708da9f77f/  

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1983/10/26/the-invasion-of-grenada/18d2aa63-f54f-4e76-932b-275fae48c3ea/ 

• White House photos during the invasion

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

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On November 6, researchers at Duke University’s Sanford School of Public Policy issued a report on “Data Brokers and the Sale of Data on U.S. Military Personnel” that illuminates the national security risks arising from the sale of these data. Lawfare Senior Editor Stephanie Pell sat down with the three of the report’s authors: Justin Sherman, a Senior Fellow at the Sanford School of Public Policy who leads its data brokerage research project; Hayley Barton, a Master of Public Policy and Master of Business Administration student at Duke University and a former research assistant on Duke’s data brokerage research project; and Brady Allen Kruse, a Master of Public Policy student at Duke University and a research assistant on Duke’s data brokerage research project.

They talked about the kinds of data that data brokers collect and sell about U.S. military personnel, the national security risks created by these practices, and the gaps in the law that enable this activity. They also discussed policy recommendations for the U.S. federal government to address the risks associated with data brokerage and the sale of data on former and active-duty U.S. military personnel.

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The use of deepfakes—a form of artificial intelligence known as deep learning to create manipulated or generated images, video, and audio—is on the rise. In 2022, the U.S. military took a nearly unprecedented step by declaring its interest in deepfake technology for offensive purposes. But the Defense Department’s exploration of this technology poses privacy and ethics risks, especially with respect to human subjects research.

To unpack all of this and more, Lawfare Associate Editor Katherine Pompilio sat down with Aimee Nishimura, a Cyber Student Fellow at the Strauss Center for International Security and Law at UT Austin. Aimee recently published a piece on Lawfare, entitled “Human Subjects Protection in the Era of Deepfakes.” They discussed the significant dangers posed by deepfakes, how the Defense Department can support the protection of human subjects in its research on the technology, and more.

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Three weeks ago, an amazing new book came out about the prosecutions stemming from the Capitol Siege of Jan. 6, 2021. It’s called "Sedition Hunters: How January 6th Broke the Justice System."

Lawfare Senior Editor Roger Parloff sat down with the book’s author, Ryan J. Reilly, who is also the Justice Reporter at NBC News. They discussed who the Sedition Hunters are, how Ryan stumbled across them, and why they’ve played such a crucial role in the Jan. 6 criminal investigation.  

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In August, the U.S. Africa Command, aka AFRICOM, reported that it had killed 13 al-Shabaab fighters in southern Somalia. Though the U.S. government said that it did not kill any civilians this time around, several past airstrikes have claimed innocent lives. In one notable example from March 2018, U.S. drone operators killed a 22-year-old mother, Lul Dahir Mohamed, and her 4-year-old daughter, Mariam, as they hitched a ride in a pickup truck with suspected militants.  

In a recently published article for The Intercept, Nick Turse offers an unprecedented account of the March 2018 strike, thanks to his reporting in Mogadishu and a secret Pentagon investigation he obtained through a Freedom of Information Act request. As Nick writes, “This is a story about misconnections, flawed intelligence, and fatal blindness. It started with bad cell service and ended with an American missile obliterating civilians the U.S. didn't intend to kill, but didn't care enough to save.”  

Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien sat down with Nick, contributing writer at The Intercept, to discuss his piece, a post mortem of that fatal drone strike, and the wider context of AFRICOM's drone war across the region from the Obama administration through the present day. They also discussed why this special operations strike cell “seemed like they did everything wrong,” according to one American drone pilot who worked in Somalia.

Please note that this episode contains content that some people may find disturbing, including graphic depictions of deadly drone strikes. Listener discretion is advised.

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This week on Rational Security, Quinta and Scott bade a temporary farewell to Alan and spent one last afternoon (for a few months, anyway) digging into the week’s big national security news stories, including:

• “Ceasefire or Misfire?” We are now one month into Israel’s military campaign in the Gaza Strip. As civilian casualties continue to mount and Israel’s ground operations get underway, there are growing calls for a ceasefire—calls that the Biden administration may now be taking up, in more limited and temporary fashion. Where are we in this conflict? Is there any end in sight?
• “Freedom of Screech.” Former President Trump’s speech—and the right to it—is increasingly becoming an issue in his various criminal and civil trials, both legal and otherwise (as evidenced by a recent bout of angry shouting he pursued on the stand in his New York civil case). How have courts been balancing the equities? Is there something they can do better?
• “No, no—THAT’s what the Insurrection Act is for.” In an effort spearheaded by co-conspirator number four himself Jeffrey Clark, President Trump and his allies are reportedly planning for a revenge campaign if he returns to the White House, beginning with a complete takeover of the Justice Department. How realistic are these plans? What can be done to stop them?

For object lessons, Alan recommended Sandra Newman’s “Julia,” a retelling of the classic “1984” from a new perspective. Quinta gave a similar bump to Brandon Taylor’s new novel, “The Late Americans.” And Scott rolled logs for his latest piece for Lawfare, a retrospective on the legacy of the War Powers Resolution fifty years after its enactment.

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It's another edition of “Trump’s Trials and Tribulations,” recorded on Nov. 9 before a live audience of Lawfare Material Supporters. To talk through this week of Trump’s trials, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with special guest Adam Klasfeld of The Messenger, Lawfare Legal Fellow Anna Bower, and Lawfare Senior Editors Quinta Jurecic and Alan Rozenshtein. They talked about the Trump testimony, Ivanka’s testimony, and her brother’s testimony. They talked about gag orders in New York, gag orders in Washington, and what it takes to be subject to a gag order. They talked about Section 3 litigation under the 14th Amendment. And they talked about the Georgia Bureau of Investigation report on all that went down in Coffee County.

This is a live conversation that happens online every Thursday at 4:00pm Eastern Time. If you would like to come join and ask a question, be sure to visit Lawfare’s Patreon account and become a Material Supporter.

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From March 2, 2019: It's hard to open a newspaper or turn on the television without hearing about the dysfunction and partisan polarization affecting members of Congress. But what about their staffs, and what does that mean for national security?

This week, Margaret Taylor sat down with seemingly unlikely partners: Luke Murry, National Security Advisor to Republican House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, and Daniel Silverberg, National Security Advisor to Democratic House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer. They spoke about security issues facing this Congress, what staffers do on a day-to-day basis, and how the two of them actually work together.

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From November 8, 2014: Last month, Jack gave a talk at the Hoover Institution on President Obama's war powers legacy. It's a remarkable address: hard-hitting, clear, and sure to discomfort Obama's defenders on war powers issues. In essence, Jack argues that Obama has gone way beyond President Bush in the aggressiveness of his approach vis a vis Congress to initiating overseas conflict. 

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When she's not hosting The Rachel Maddow Show on MSNBC, Rachel Maddow has been diving deep into the history of fascism in America. First on her podcast, Rachel Maddow Presents: Ultra, and most recently in her new book, Prequel: An American Fight Against Fascism, she has unearthed the stories for popular audiences both of an earlier era of foreign authoritarian influence in American politics and of those who fought against it. 

In this conversation, Maddow sat down with Lawfare Editor in Chief Benjamin Wittes to discuss Prequel and its relationship to the modern fight against populist authoritarianism. They talked about the many striking similarities between then and now, some key differences, the necessity but ultimate inadequacy of law enforcement as a solution to authoritarian movements, the role of journalism, whether grifting is an inherent feature of right-wing authoritarianism, and why so many heroes of that era's fight against fascism are almost forgotten today.

For future reading on this subject, Maddow recommends:

• Charles R. Gallagher, "Nazis of Copley Square: The Forgotten Story of the Christian Front"
• Steven J. Ross, "Hitler in Los Angeles: How Jews Foiled Nazi Plots Against Hollywood and America"

You can also watch Rachel's full conversation with Ben at https://youtu.be/Y1Yc4Ss8_OI.

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

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Fionnuala Ní Aoláin completed a productive six-year tenure as the UN Special Rapporteur on counterterrorism and human rights last week. Among other issues, she examined how financing counterterrorism and new technologies used for counterterrorism affect human rights. She also analyzed the protection of human rights in several locations with different political contexts, including visits to Guantanamo Bay and detention facilities in northeast Syria. 

Lawfare Research Fellow Matt Gluck sat down with Fionnuala to discuss her experience as special rapporteur. They spoke about the downstream harms of counterterrorism financing, her conversations with Guantanamo Bay detainees, why gender should be a meaningful consideration of counterterrorism policy, and much more.

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You probably already know that Rep. Mike Johnson is the new Speaker of the House. What you may not know is that every single one of the issues on his plate is a national security issue, at least in the short term. Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editor and Brookings Senior Fellow Molly Reynolds to talk it all through. They talked about Israel aid, Ukraine aid, Taiwan assistance, the border, FISA Section 702, government shutdowns, and more. It's a rollicking conversation through a crazy bunch of issues that are all on the front burner of the new Speaker's stove as he takes over a job for which he appears to be wholly unprepared. 

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In the debate about data privacy and harms, one issue has not received adequate attention by the press or in policy conversations relative to the severity and volume of harm: the link between publicly available information and stalking and gendered violence. 

To discuss how “people search” data brokers use public information and contribute to stalking and abuse, Lawfare’s Fellow in Technology Policy and Law, Eugenia Lostri, sat down with Justin Sherman who recently wrote a Lawfare article on the topic. Justin is the Founder and CEO of Global Cyber Strategies and a Senior Fellow at Duke University’s Sanford School of Public Policy. They talked about the publicly available information carve-outs, the systemic nature of the problem, and how policymakers should step in.

Content Warning: This episode contains discussions of gendered violence and stalking. Listener discretion is advised.

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This week on Rational Security, Alan, Quinta, and Scott were joined by Lawfare Fellow in Technology Policy and Law Eugenia Lostri to tackle some of the overlooked national security stories that have been percolating the past few weeks, including:

• “BrokenAI?” The Biden administration has rolled out a groundbreaking new Executive Order on Artificial Intelligence that seeks to take the first steps towards a real regulatory regime for this revolutionary technology. Is this a responsible step? Or does it threaten to put the U.S. development of AI in a regulatory cage?
• “Ending the Fracas in Caracas.” The Biden administration is taking a step towards thawing relations with the Maduro regime in Venezuela, easing sanctions at least temporarily in exchange for the release of political prisoners and a promise to hold competitive elections—though Maduro has yet to agree to ensure that most prominent opposition figures will be allowed to participate. Is this a smart way forward or folly?
• “Let’s Get Mikey to Do It, He’ll Try Anything.” We have a new Speaker of the House in the form of Rep. Mike Johnson. And he has decided to open his speakership with a bold move: separating aid from Israel out from other emergency measures and insisting that it be funded by cuts from the Internal Revenue Service—a move that President Biden has promised to veto and that Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell has come out publicly against. What does this tell us about the direction Congress is headed in the weeks to come?

For object lessons, Alan shared a bit of comedy in the form of Jeff Maurer’s satire of statements on the Gaza conflict, “Windex Ain’t Scared.” Quinta recommended the second season of “Our Flag Means Death” for a delightful romcom about bloodthirsty pirates. Scott celebrated the power of love. And Eugenia recommended the video game Pillars of Eternity for those desperate to play Baldur’s Gate III but whose computers cannot handle it.

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It's another episode of “Trump's Trials and Tribulations,” recorded live on Zoom before an audience of Lawfare Material Supporters. Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editor Roger Parloff, Lawfare Legal Fellow Anna Bower, and Josh Gerstein of Politico to talk about Wednesday’s hearing in the Mar-a-Lago case, Section 3 disqualification litigation in Minnesota and Colorado, the latest from Fulton County, what Judge Cannon is up to with her CIPA rulings, and the schedule for the Mar-a-Lago trial.

This is a live conversation that happens online every Thursday at 4:00pm Eastern Time. If you would like to come join and ask a question, be sure to visit Lawfare’s Patreon account and become a Material Supporter.

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From June 26, 2018: With the media and political commentators focused on family separation at the U.S.-Mexico border, few are paying attention to how developments along Mexico's southern border affect the United States. On Monday, Benjamin Wittes spoke with Stephanie Leutert, director of the Mexico Security Initiative at The University of Texas at Austin, who has spent the past several weeks in the field studying the flow of migrants from Central America into Mexico. They discussed who's entering Mexico, why they're doing it, why most continue on to the United States, and where the dangers lie along their journeys.

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Since Hamas’s attack on Israel on Oct. 7, the Israel-Hamas war has largely been fought in Gaza, a small strip of land along the border of the Mediterranean Sea. But farther inland, there has been an uptick in hostilities between Israelis and Palestinians in the Palestinian territory of the West Bank. Israeli human rights organization B’Tselem says that at least 13 Palestinian herding communities in the West Bank have been forcibly displaced since the beginning of the war due to Israeli settler violence and intimidation, and nearly 100 Palestinians in the territory are reported to have been killed since the war began by both Israeli military strikes as well as settler violence. 

The fraught relationship between the Israeli government, Israeli settlers, Palestinians, and the Palestinian Authority are not new. But in part because of those existing issues, the West Bank has the potential to expand and complicate the bounds of the Israel-Hamas war—and some may argue that that is already underway. 

To understand how the West Bank fits into the ongoing hostilities between Israel and Hamas, Lawfare Associate Editor Hyemin Han spoke to Dan Byman from the Center for Strategic & International Studies, who is also Lawfare’s Foreign Policy Editor; Ghaith al-Omari of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy; and Scott R. Anderson, Lawfare Senior Editor and Fellow in Governance Studies at the Brookings Institution. They talked about the international law that currently governs the rules of engagement in the West Bank, the political responses of the Israeli government and other Arab states, and how West Bank dynamics will impact the broader outcomes of the Israel-Hamas war. 

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The British Empire was already buckling under its own internal tensions in the 1920s. One hundred years later, historian and author Matthew Parker uses stories from across the globe to fill his new book One Fine Day, centered on the territorial peak of the empire on September 29, 1923. It reveals much about the limits of empire, the effects of liberation movements on colonized peoples around the world, and the dynamics of strategic transition.

David Priess and Matthew chatted about his globally mobile upbringing; the experiences driving him to this topic; the state of the British Empire on and around September 29, 2023; the story of Ocean Island (Banaba); how the First World War affected how colonized people viewed imperial rule; the emergence of social anthropology and its impact on racist views underlying colonialism; the influence of sport in the empire; George Orwell's experience in Burma; the activities of Marcus Garvey; Ian Fleming's time in Jamaica at the house he called Goldeneye, where he wrote all of the James Bond novels; and more.

Among the works mentioned in this episode:

The book One Fine Day by Matthew Parker

The book Goldeneye by Matthew Parker

The book Panama Fever by Matthew Parker

The book The Sugar Barons by Matthew Parker

The book The Earth Transformed by Peter Frankopan

The book The Silk Roads by Peter Frankopan

The book A Passage North by Anuk Arudpragasam

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

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A few weeks ago, an organization that works in the democracy protection space asked Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes and Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson to give a talk about what would happen if Donald Trump both got convicted and got elected. And for this episode of the Lawfare Podcast, we’ve reprised that conversation, with an accompanying YouTube version including their PowerPoint presentation.

Ben and Scott talked about what could happen if a president gets convicted and then gets elected, including how the system might respond if it’s a federal case, if it’s a state case, if the case is pending, and if the case is already wrapped up. 

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In the wake of Donald Trump's role in the attempt to overturn the 2020 election and the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol, lawsuits in states around the country are seeking to disqualify him from the 2024 election. Challengers to his eligibility invoke Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment, which provides in relevant part that "No person shall . . . hold any office . . . under the United States . . . who, having previously taken an oath . . . as an officer of the United States . . . to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof."

As of now, there are nearly two dozen states in which litigation is ongoing to bar Trump from the ballot, and that number is only expected to grow. Earlier this week, a Colorado district began a week-long bench trial and, this Thursday, the Minnesota Supreme Court will hear oral argument. And if a state does disqualify Trump, the United States Supreme Court will no doubt immediately hear the case.

On Monday October 30, the University of Minnesota Law School held a conference with leading law and political science scholars on "Section 3, Insurrection, and the 2024 Election: Does the Fourteenth Amendment Bar Donald Trump from the Presidency?" Today's Lawfare Podcast is a recording of one of the conference panels, which focused on the political implications of the Section 3 cases.

The moderator was Larry Jacobs of the Hubert H. Humphrey School of Public Affairs at the University of Minnesota, and the panelists were Julia Azari, a Professor of Political Science at Marquette University; Ilya Somin, a Professor of Law at George Mason University's Antonin Scalia Law School; and Eric Segall, a Professor of Law at the Georgia State College of Law.

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It’s been a rough few months for Senator Bob Menendez. The powerful New Jersey Democrat has pleaded not guilty to federal charges related to an alleged bribery scheme under which, according to prosecutors, Menendez carried out favors for the government of Egypt. 

But while the allegations set out in the indictment sound pretty unsavory, recent decisions by the Supreme Court—in particular, the 2016 case McDonnell v. United States—make prosecuting such corruption cases significantly more difficult. Lawfare recently published an article about the potential impact of McDonnell on the Menendez case by Daniel Richman, the Paul J. Kellner Professor of Law at Columbia Law School. Lawfare Senior Editor Quinta Jurecic sat down with Dan to discuss McDonnell, the charges against Menendez, and, of course, the photographs of gold bars allegedly given to Menendez that federal prosecutors included in the indictment.

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We are a little more than a year out from the 2024 election—an election that, in countless ways, promises to be unlike any other. One way it may be different is the very real prospect of a scenario in which neither major party candidate secures enough electoral votes to win, kicking the decision to the House of Representatives in what is called a “contingent election.” Possible third parties are actively discussing the possibility of a contingent election as part of their political strategy—and this talk has many experts and advocates nervous about what chaos the turn to a contingent election might wreak. 

To talk through what this scenario might mean, Lawfare Senior Editor Scott R. Anderson sat down with Beau Tremitiere and Aisha Woodward of Protect Democracy, which recently released a report—and published a related piece in Lawfare—on the topic. They walked through how a contingent election would work, how it might end up subverting the democratic process, and what alternatives might be out there for those less than content with the two-party status quo.

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This week on Rational Security, Alan, Quinta, and Scott came together in the virtual studio to talk over the week’s big national security news, including:

• “Stuck in the Middle (East) with You.” The Biden administration is finding itself increasingly pilloried from both sides for its handling of the Oct. 7 massacre perpetrated by Hamas and Israel’s ensuing military response in the Gaza Strip, as the right urges stronger support for Israel while some on the left are becoming more vocal in calling for a ceasefire. How far can the Biden administration walk this tightrope?
• “Et Tu, Jenna?” Four co-defendants of former President Trump, including Rudy Giuliani’s right hand woman Jenna Ellis, have now pled out and promised to cooperate in the Fulton County prosecution addressing alleged election interference—and media reports indicate that his former Chief of Staff Mark Meadows has accepted an immunity deal to testify before a federal grand jury. What does this all mean for Trump’s legal prospects moving forward?
• “Exit, Stage Far Right.” Former President Trump is reportedly once again planning to exit or diminish NATO if he returns to the White House—a position his contender for Republican nominee Vivek Ramaswamy has endorsed. What is the future of U.S. participation in the NATO alliance?

For object lessons, Alan recommended Tiffany Li’s brilliant contribution to McSweeney’s Internet Tendency, “Statement from the University on Current Tensions in the Place You’re Probably Thinking About When You Read This,” which satirizes…exactly what you’re thinking about. Quinta lightened the mood by talking about serial killers in recommending Robert Kolker’s new piece, “The Botched Hunt for the Gilgo Beach Killer,” in the New York Times Magazine. And Scott directed D.C. locals to his favorite amaro distillery, Don Ciccio & Figli, who is brewing up botanicals right here in the city’s own Ivy City neighborhood.

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It's another episode of “Trump’s Trials and Tribulations,” recorded live before an audience of Lawfare Material Supporters on Thursday. Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editors Roger Parloff and Quinta Jurecic, and Lawfare Fulton County Correspondent and Legal Fellow Anna Bower to talk about all the pleas that have happened in Fulton County and all the pleas that are coming. They talked about whether you can take back a plea by announcing that it was extorted, about the blizzard of motions to dismiss that Donald Trump has filed in the D.C. District Court, and about the government's response to the claims of presidential immunity.

This is a live conversation that happens online every Thursday at 4:00pm Eastern Time. If you would like to come join and ask a question, be sure to visit Lawfare’s Patreon account and become a Material Supporter.

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From July 3, 2018: Recep Tayyip Erdoğan won the Turkish election the other day, and becomes the first president under Turkey's new empowered presidential system. His party, in coalition with ultra-nationalists, will control the Parliament as well, so it's a big win for the Turkish president. It may be a loss for democratic values. On Tuesday, Benjamin Wittes sat down with Amanda Sloat, Robert Bosch Senior Fellow at Brookings, to discuss the election results, the crackdown in Turkey and the justifications for it, friction points in U.S.-Turkish relations, and what comes next for Turkey, the United States, and the EU.

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It’s probably fair to say that the Israeli government was not the only one caught flat-footed by the deadly attack launched by Hamas on Oct. 7. On that day, several of the U.S. government’s top diplomatic posts in the Middle East were vacant, and the Biden administration had long focused most of its attention elsewhere in the world. And, in a now infamous episode from only a week prior to the attack, National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan had said, “The Middle East region is quieter today than it has been in two decades.”

But all that has changed. Though its record is still up for debate, the U.S. diplomatic response has kicked into gear, with several visits to the region from Sullivan, Secretary of State Blinken, President Biden, and other high-level U.S. officials. 

To take stock of the U.S. diplomatic response to the war thus far, Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien sat down with Akbar Shahid Ahmed, HuffPost's senior foreign affairs reporter, and Robbie Gramer, a diplomacy and national security reporter at Foreign Policy. They talked about the nearly broken Senate confirmation process, the fallout from a high-level diplomatic resignation, and the potential “mutiny brewing” inside the State Department. They also discussed whether or not a reported dissent cable circulating through the department might shift U.S. policy toward Israel-Palestine.

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Many will recognize the voice of Steve Inskeep from his nearly two decades-long role hosting NPR's Morning Edition. But he's also the author of what is now a trilogy of books about political relationships in the United States during the 19th century, including his newly published Differ We Must: How Lincoln Succeeded in a Divided America. His newest book uses a unique framework to study Lincoln's leadership and growth: Describing in detail difficult interactions Lincoln had with sixteen individuals, ranging from generals to political opponents to his wife Mary Todd Lincoln.

David Priess spoke with Steve about what drew him to Lincoln as a subject; the challenges of recreating private exchanges from long ago; the links between Differ We Must and his earlier books; Lincoln's difficult conversations with Joshua Giddings, Frederick Douglass, Jessie Benton Frémont, Lean Bear, and others; and enduring lessons of Lincoln's pragmatic leadership.

Among the works mentioned in this episode:

The book Differ We Must by Steve Inskeep

The book Instant City by Steve Inskeep

The book Jacksonland by Steve Inskeep

The book Imperfect Union by Steve Inskeep

The book series Abraham Lincoln: A History by John Nicolay and John Hay

The book series Abraham Lincoln by Carl Sandburg

Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.

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The D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals last week faintly endorsed the Justice Department’s reading of a critical felony charge, “corrupt obstruction of an official proceeding,” which the department has relied on to prosecute at least 317 individuals for their alleged roles in the Jan. 6 Capitol riot. In the case, United States v. Thomas Robertson, the court affirmed the Justice Department’s conception of the definition of “corruptly,” as stated in the charge. Robertson followed another D.C. Circuit ruling in April, United States v. Fischer, which upheld the charge even more fragilely.

Lawfare Senior Editor Roger Parloff detailed the court’s Robertson decision on Lawfare. Lawfare Research Fellow Matt Gluck sat down with Parloff to discuss Robertson, Fischer, and what it would mean for the Justice Department if its interpretation of the corrupt obstruction statute is ultimately rejected. 

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Another morning, another surprise plea deal in Fulton County Superior Court. It was Jenna Ellis this time, in front of Judge Scott McAfee, pleading out of the Fulton County election interference case. There was a tearful colloquy and a letter of apology to the people of Georgia. There is a cooperation agreement of some kind, and there is yet another sentence of probation. 

Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down to talk about it all with Lawfare Legal Fellow Anna Bower. They talked about how big a deal Jenna Ellis could be for Fani Willis, about how the DA's record is stacking up, about who might be next, and about who's going to hold out and force this whole thing to trial.

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Thanks to advances in digital technologies, it is now easier than ever for civilians to get involved in military cyber operations. From private civilian companies being involved in cyber defense to individuals engaging in offensive cyber operations against enemy targets, the increased participation of civilians in armed conflict is a risky trend.

Lawfare Fellow in Technology Policy and Law Eugenia Lostri sat down with two guests who recently authored an article outlining eight rules to guide the behavior of civilian hackers during war. Tilman Rodenhäuser is a legal advisor at the International Committee of the Red Cross, or ICRC. Mauro Vignati is a senior adviser on new digital technologies of warfare, also at the ICRC. They talked about what could happen if the principle of distinction is eroded and civilians lose their status, what limits governments should impose on civilian hackers conducting cyber operations in the context of an armed conflict, and the response so far from hacker groups and the cybersecurity community.

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The promise and risks posed by artificial intelligence appear to have captured our collective imagination. The risks seem to span from global doom brought about by a rogue AI to the enshrinement of harmful bias and discrimination in systems that can determine whether you get a loan. The stakes require governments to step up and regulate the field, with several key companies advocating for government action. This call has been answered, but conceptions of responsible AI risk management and appropriate regulations are already diverging across jurisdictions.

To discuss the approaches to AI regulation in the United States and in the European Union, Lawfare Fellow in Technology Policy and Law Eugenia Lostri sat down with Arianna Evers, special counsel at WilmerHale, and Itsiq Benizri, counsel also at WilmerHale. Evers and Benizri recently authored an article on comparative approaches to AI regulation for Lawfare. They talked about the breadth of regulatory options being discussed, the similarities and differences across jurisdictions, and how the quickly evolving field affects how they help their clients navigate AI-related challenges.

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This week on Rational Security, Alan, Quinta, and Scott were joined by their Lawfare colleague and Carnegie Endowment for International Peace Senior Fellow Eric Ciaramella to discuss the week’s big national security news, including:

• “PiS Off.” Elections in Poland appear set to oust the incumbent Law and Justice (or “PiS”) party, which has spent the past several years in power undermining many of the tenants of liberal democracy—that is, if the coalition of centrist and leftist groups that won a parliamentary majority can successfully form a government. What might this tell us about the authoritarian drift in Europe—and the extent to which it’s reversible?
• “Gaza Under Siege.” Israel’s military response to the massacre committed by Hamas is entering its second week, as rockets continue to rain down on Gaza, which remains cut off to most utilities, supplies, and humanitarian aid. President Biden, meanwhile, is in Israel showing his support, but has had to cancel meetings with Jordanian officials due to outrage over what Gaza authorities initially claimed—inaccurately, according to Israeli officials and the Biden administration—was an Israeli attack on a hospital there that killed more than 500 people. What is the trajectory of this conflict? Where is it headed?
• “Heir Jordan?” Conservative House judiciary committee chairman Jim Jordan is the latest possible inheritor of the Speakership in the House of Representatives, having won the nomination of the Republican caucus shortly after majority leader Steve Scalise went down in defeat on the floor. But Jordan also failed to win enough support for his colleagues in the first two votes on the floor. What does the state of the House mean for the country?

For object lessons, Alan passed along his latest tonally off comfort watch: the British series A Spy Among Friends, which tells the story of notorious spy Kim Philby. Quinta recommended the new book, “Number Go Up,” by Zeke Faux. Scott urged folks to check out the surprisingly huggy and wholesome season 2 of The Bear. And secret musician Eric endorsed the Strong Songs podcast and its close look at the song writing process.

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It's another episode of “Trump’s Trials and Tribulations,” our weekly YouTube livestream conducted on Zoom for Lawfare Material Supporters. It was a breaking news day on Thursday: Sidney Powell, the Kraken lawyer, pled guilty in a plea deal in Fulton County Superior Court, one day before she and Ken Chesebro were going to trial.

To unpack it all, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes sat down with Lawfare Senior Editors Roger Parloff and Quinta Jurecic, Lawfare Legal Fellow Anna Bower, and Lawfare Associate Editor Hyemin Han. They talked about the plea, about what it means for Ken Chesebro and the trial for which jury selection was set to start on Friday, about what happened this week in Tanya Chutkan's courtroom where a gag order was imposed on Donald Trump, and about the defense motion to dismiss on presidential immunity grounds in that courtroom and an article about it by Quinta Jurecic.

On Oct. 20. Lawfare Senior Editor Scott Anderson sat down with Lawfare Legal Fellow and Courts Correspondent for a special edition of "Trump's Trials and Tribulations" to talk about Kenneth Chesebro's surprise guilty plea. This discussion is added to the end of the Thursday conversation

This is a live conversation that happens online every Thursday at 4:00pm Eastern Time. If you would like to come join and ask a question, be sure to visit Lawfare’s Patreon account and become a Material Supporter.

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From July 7, 2018: It's been a bad week for Polish democracy, with the government removing a bunch of judges from the country's Supreme Court in order to replace them with party loyalists. In response, protestors took to the streets to push back against the deconsolidation of Polish democracy. Radek Sikorski joined Benjamin Wittes to discuss the week's events and the larger degradation of Polish governance of which they are a part. Radek served as foreign minister and defense minister of Poland, as well as speaker of the Polish parliament. He has also been a visiting fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, and he's currently a senior fellow at the Center of European Studies at Harvard University and distinguished statesman at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.

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